About the 234 known OBR errors

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think you might be referring to J/R's concept of 'unrelaxed action'.

Although many umpires embrace the concept of unrelaxed action, from what I understand at least one of the pro schools does not. They teach that a runner can be appealed for a missed base even when he's scrambling back to it, using the strict language of 7.10(b) as justification.

I was merely trying to explain to the obtuse "Larry" what the difference was between appealing a runner scrambling back to a base and appealing a runner with a "clean miss" advancing to the next base. I agree that J/R had already explained that.

For my part, I like the idea of unrelaxed action: IMO, a missed base appeal should occur after playing action has ended, not when a runner is 4 feet away and scrambling to get to the "missed" base. I admit that the rules provide scant support for this opinion: it just seems to me to be better baseball.

In actual play, I probably just wouldn't "hear" an appeal during unrelaxed action.

What if R1 slide past (not touching) the base as F4 bobbled the throw. R1 gets up and tries for third where he's tagged out. Do you now allow an appeal that he missed second? How (or why) is that different from the OP?

(And, to Larry -- this has all been discussed many times before with some taking one side and some the other and no, to my knowledge "official" ruling. J/R, and all other "authoritative opinion" has been wrong before.)

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What if R1 slide past (not touching) the base as F4 bobbled the throw. R1 gets up and tries for third where he's tagged out. Do you now allow an appeal that he missed second? How (or why) is that different from the OP?

Bob, In your scenario is the base ever tagged by a fielder in possession of the ball? If R1 has slid past 2B without touching it and then went to 3B and 2B was tagged by a fielder and the ball, I would allow an appeal for a missed base.

In Larry1953's scenario, 2B was not tagged by a fielder and the ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Bob, In your scenario is the base ever tagged by a fielder in possession of the ball? If R1 has slid past 2B without touching it and then went to 3B and 2B was tagged by a fielder and the ball, I would allow an appeal for a missed base.

In Larry1953's scenario, 2B was not tagged by a fielder and the ball.

In both plays, the runner is tagged out during "live action" and then the defense appeals that R1 missed second (it's assumed that the appeal is correctly performed).

[Larry1953]

To remain obtuse, the play was on a forced runner. The rules say such runner can be put out if either he or the base he was forced to is tagged before he touches said base and no run can score if such force out is the third out.

Many times you see F3 snag a liner while diving toward 1B while R1 is off the bag simply with his lead. 1B then crawls over a foot or two to tag the bag. Technically this is an appeal play and 1B hardly has the time to make a verbal appeal. As part of continuous action with BU being aware of the circumstances, the runner is always called out if he does not make it back in time. It seems to be a similar situation with the OP where the runner is scrambling to get back to 2B and the BU knows he missed the bag.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Many times you see F3 snag a liner while diving toward 1B while R1 is off the bag simply with his lead. 1B then crawls over a foot or two to tag the bag. Technically this is an appeal play and 1B hardly has the time to make a verbal appeal. As part of continuous action with BU being aware of the circumstances, the runner is always called out if he does not make it back in time. It seems to be a similar situation with the OP where the runner is scrambling to get back to 2B and the BU knows he missed the bag.

You can't use dissimliar plays to justify each other, Adios Amigos.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

To remain obtuse, the play was on a forced runner. The rules say such runner can be put out if either he or the base he was forced to is tagged before he touches said base and no run can score if such force out is the third out.

Many times you see F3 snag a liner while diving toward 1B while R1 is off the bag simply with his lead. 1B then crawls over a foot or two to tag the bag. Technically this is an appeal play and 1B hardly has the time to make a verbal appeal. As part of continuous action with BU being aware of the circumstances, the runner is always called out if he does not make it back in time. It seems to be a similar situation with the OP where the runner is scrambling to get back to 2B and the BU knows he missed the bag.

An appeal needs to be "clearly intended". That happens when F3 touches first after catching the fly -- it's the only reason he does it, and everyone knows why he's doing it. It doesn't (usually) happen when F4 tags R1 who slid past second -- that looks like a tag of someone who is off the base, and not an appeal.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

An appeal needs to be "clearly intended". That happens when F3 touches first after catching the fly -- it's the only reason he does it, and everyone knows why he's doing it. It doesn't (usually) happen when F4 tags R1 who slid past second -- that looks like a tag of someone who is off the base, and not an appeal.

Understood. But in the J/R case, the defense makes a relaxed play appeal, indicating their appeal intentions on what had just transpired. I suppose the crux of the matter is that J/R interprets that you cannot make a fourth out appeal at the same base the same runner made the third out. I can see the rationale in that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What if R1 slide past (not touching) the base as F4 bobbled the throw. R1 gets up and tries for third where he's tagged out. Do you now allow an appeal that he missed second? How (or why) is that different from the OP?

Yes. It's different (in J/R world) because the appeal occurs during relaxed action in your case but not the OP.

IMO, it's not any feature of the tag of R1 that matters, but the nature of the appeal. I have a problem with granting an appeal during a runner's effort to correct his baserunning error.

I'm ambivalent about this issue, and glad it rarely arises. I've already noted that J/R world is pure interpretation here, and I respect umpires who insist on a stricter interpretation of the letter of 7.10(b). I just think J/R is more in the spirit of the game than such an interpretation.

Here's a bigger problem case for me: tie game, bottom of the last inning, bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter grounds to F6, who flips to F4 for the third out. F4 bobbles the ball as R1 slides past 2B without touching it. After R3 crosses the plate, F4 gathers the ball and tags R1 off the base for the third out. Do we allow an advantageous 4th out appeal in this case? If so, we go to extra innings; if not the game is over!

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here's a bigger problem case for me: tie game, bottom of the last inning, bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter grounds to F6, who flips to F4 for the third out. F4 bobbles the ball as R1 slides past 2B without touching it. After R3 crosses the plate, F4 gathers the ball and tags R1 off the base for the third out. Do we allow an advantageous 4th out appeal in this case? If so, we go to extra innings; if not the game is over!

Depends on ruleset:
In FED, all the defense has to say is R1 missed 2B. Play the next inning.
In OBR, a proper appeal has to be made. Depending if the appeal is made properly or not, we may be going home or playing the next inning.

[Larry1953]

What if in both cases, that instead of tagging the runner, F6 tags the base while shouting "that's still a force!"? Hard to see how he could suppress the ingrained urge to tag the runner off the bag, but it would seem a proper way to negate the run.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

What if in both cases, that instead of tagging the runner, F6 tags the base while shouting "that's still a force!"? Hard to see how he could suppress the ingrained urge to tag the runner off the bag, but it would seem a proper way to negate the run.

F6 would get more credence if he/she told the BU the runner missed the base. Then the appeal would be apparent. BTW, no shouting needed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

What if in both cases, that instead of tagging the runner, F6 tags the base while shouting "that's still a force!"? Hard to see how he could suppress the ingrained urge to tag the runner off the bag, but it would seem a proper way to negate the run.

That's not a force because the runner is assumed to have touched the base unless / until there's an appeal.

And, the various answers to all these questions depends on whether you subscribe to J/R's interpretation.

I, for one, don't, in this instance.

[Larry1953]

Thanks, Bob. I think I've finally seen the light, at least as far as the J/R rationale goes. I think the scenario you described about the bobbled throw could quite possibly happen. It would be interesting to see what the on field call would be. I'm not quite sure how J/R can admit that the rules "theoretically" support the no run out call but then come up with an opposite interpretation. Rules aren't really a "theory" of anything. They are logical posits from which deductions can be made. Anyway, thanks for your replies, they were very helpful.

[SAump]

The force, catch or tag, was removed with a loud emphatic safe call at 2B.
The runner must be tagged out while off base.
No missed base appeal allowed.

OBR 7.08e, 7.08j and 4.09a