Are these errors?

[jayedgarwho]

(1) A ten-second violation is called on what seems to the coach to be a quick count. The official says that he begins counting when the possessing team gets the ball for the throw-in. Essentially then, in this official's view, the 5-second count is part of the 10-second count, and the "backcourt" (as in "continuous control of the ball in his/her backcourt," NFHS Rule 9-8) then also includes OOB behind the backcourt. Later, the coach discovers that Casebook 9.8-C is the only place that makes references to what he had always thought was the obvious rule: after a time out or a deflection OOB, "Team A will have ten seconds to advance the ball to the frountcourt FOLLOWING THE THROW-IN if a player of Team A gains control in A's backcourt."

Isn't the official's call an error? Isn't it an obvious error?

(2) Two minutes left in a close game. Younger than HS-age players. A scramble and pile-up under the basket defended by Team A. Team A's center goes down and stays down as the ball is loose. The rebound is collected by Team A, and Team A moves down the court. Team A's center remains down in the 3-second area, clutching his knee. The official trailing the play never gets out past the injured player. After maybe 3-4 seconds of possesion by Team A, Team B steals near the center circle, breaks down court, and scores (over and around the fallen center). After the basket, the officials blow the whistle for the injury. (The center is done for the year with a fracture in the kneecap.)

The failure to stop play earlier is unlike the regular practice in our tournaments (grades 5-9). Is it also inconsistent with the rules, at least for pre-HS players?

[williebfree]

Do not have rulebook handy, but these are some basic issues.

Situation #1
5 seconds for throw-in AND 10-seconds to get it into the frontcourt.

Situation #2
I would whistle this dead as soon as Team A gains possession of the ball. The safety of the fallen player is my primary concern.

It sounds like your league (tourney) has hired an inexperienced or otherwise incompetent official. It would be interesting to hear his/her point of view on these plays.

[Rich]

The injury play may not be inconsistent with the rules, but it shows an immense lack of common sense on the part of the officials.

Rich

[ChuckElias]

Situation #1 is an error on the official's part. It's not, however, correctable per 2-10. If the official's partner came to him quickly and told him that he'd screwed it up, he might have said, "Oops, inadvertant whistle" and given it back to the offensive team.

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
The injury play may not be inconsistent with the rules, but it shows an immense lack of common sense on the part of the officials.

Actually, it is inconsistent with both Fed and NCAA rules. Fed Rule 5-8-2, Note: " When a player is injured as in Art. 2(a), the official may suspend play after the ball is dead or is in control of the injured player's team or when the opponents complete a play. . . When necessary to protect an injured player, the official may immediately suspend play."

NCAA Rule 5-9-8: The game and shot clocks, if running, shall be stopped when an official "suspends play after the ball is dead or controlled by the injured player's team or when the opponents complete a play after a player is injured."

If a kid goes down and stays down, then you blow it dead immediately if his team has the ball. You only wait if the opponents have the ball and are attacking the basket.

Chuck

[firedoc]

I agree with Chuck on the second item. If the injured player's team has control and are not making an immediate, active move towards a basket, I would whistle it dead and let the trainer/coach deal with the injury. If the opposing team is driving hard towards the basket, you should let the play continue. If they pull up for some reason...whistle and stop play. The only exception to this would be if you are afraid that there is a very serious injury, in which case you should stop play immediately regardless of who has possession or what activity is occuring.

[hawkk]

And why didn't Coach A call a TO?!?

[williebfree]

Originally posted by hawkk
And why didn't Coach A call a TO?!?

Perhaps the coach (displaying self-control and patience) expected the official to blow his whistle when s/he deemed it appropriate/necessary.???

[Rich]

I don't even consider the ball in many cases. If a kid goes down and STAYS DOWN and it's not obviously a turned ankle or something like that, I'm stopping the game and getting a coach/trainer on the court.

It's only a game.

Rich

[jayedgarwho]

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Originally posted by hawkk
And why didn't Coach A call a TO?!?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
Just FYI:

(1) Coach A expected the whistle to be blown for the injury. Such a whistle had come, by a different crew, in a somehwat similar situation in the prior game.

(2) Coach A had one TO left and was trailing by 4 with 2:00 to go. (He trailed by 6 once the officials blew the whistle for the injury.)

(3) In the first half, Coach A had called his first time out this way:

Coach A (yelling): Time out white, time out white, time out white, time out white!
[Official blows whistle]
Coach A: (still yelling) time out white!

Official to Coach A: Coach, we can play it your way or we can play it my way. Don't try to embarrass me.
Coach A: I apologize, that wasn't my intention. I would not try to embarrass you.
[AFTER THE TIME OUT]
Coach A: Sorry again. That wasn't my intention.

[Later in the first half while Team A is being full-court pressed]:
Coach A (standing and making T-signal): Time out white!
No whistle blown. Team B steals the ball.