The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 12:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 10
BOO ruling in Dizzy Dean

This happened to a friend of mine's team in a DD tournament we both attended. Here's the situation:

Start of inning, opponent is at the bottom of their lineup (B7, B8, and B9 are due up). B7 singles, then a pinch hitter is sent up. PH singles, moving the runner to 2nd. Then, instead of B9 coming up, the top of the order, B1, comes to the plate. Defense notices, but waits for the result of the play, hoping for a double-play and knowing that it can always be called back if not. B1 doubles, driving in both runs. B2 comes to the plate and before the ball is pitched, defensive manager tells ump that B1 batted out of order (B9 was skipped). Umpire agrees, calling B9 out, sending B1 back to the batters box (since he should be the next batter), and sends the runners back.

Offensive manager cames storming out of the dugout, claiming that when PH came in, he announced to the umpire that he was batting for B9, not B8, which umpire thinks about, then confirms. If so, continues the manager, then it was actually the PH that was batting out of turn, but the PH became legal as soon as a pitch was thrown to B1. Umpire reverses himself and lets the original play stand.

I spoke with my friend after the game, who was pretty upset, but the umpire told him "if you knew he was out of order, you should've said something before the first pitch. Then I could've called B8 out."

I can't find a flaw in the logic, but it still seems a little shady to me. After the game, the opposing manager said he had intended for the PH to bat for B9, but he went out too soon (this is 8U ball). He claimed he didn't realize it until too late.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 12:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,301
Did the umpire announce the PH (including that he was hitting for B9) to the opposing team? He should have, and this all would have been avoided (or at least there wouldn't be any controversy about it).
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 12:35pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
This sounds hokey, almost to the point that OC planned this miscommunication to get B1 up faster.

Lucky for me, I'd have this on my card, and likely would have corrected the coach when he said, "for B9".

I think I have BOO in this sitch as described.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 01:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northwest suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 645
I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?

As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid. If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.

Last edited by MikeStrybel; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 01:49pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 01:53pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?
Generally, about half the youth leagues around here give the option to the team of whether to bat the lineup or not. Those that do, I accept their lineup at the PC and put it in my pocket. I might have pulled one of those out to address BOO at most once per year. Those that don't, I treat exactly the same as I do at a HS PC - look it over, clarify anything marginal, ask the coach to double check it, and then dub it official - and put it in my pocket. For those teams, YES, I do notate subs, PH, etc. And yes - I'm pretty confident I or any of my partners would have corrected a coach who said, #19 going in for B9 if B9 was not currently the next batter ... or at least made sure B9 is what he meant ... and in THAT case, I'm making sure both scorekeeper and opposing coach have the sub completely clear.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 02:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northwest suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Generally, about half the youth leagues around here give the option to the team of whether to bat the lineup or not. Those that do, I accept their lineup at the PC and put it in my pocket. I might have pulled one of those out to address BOO at most once per year. Those that don't, I treat exactly the same as I do at a HS PC - look it over, clarify anything marginal, ask the coach to double check it, and then dub it official - and put it in my pocket. For those teams, YES, I do notate subs, PH, etc. And yes - I'm pretty confident I or any of my partners would have corrected a coach who said, #19 going in for B9 if B9 was not currently the next batter ... or at least made sure B9 is what he meant ... and in THAT case, I'm making sure both scorekeeper and opposing coach have the sub completely clear.
Way to go. I don't work small ball and haven't for a couple decades.

Our league and almost all in my son's travel program in Illinois and Wisconsin don't issue line up cards for 11U.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 02:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
This sounds hokey, almost to the point that OC planned this miscommunication to get B1 up faster.
That's why my friend thought -- it was just too convenient otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?

As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid. If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.
That was part of the problem -- we almost always bat our entire roster. The only time we don't is during district and state tournaments, where we actually submit roster cards. As a result, we're all pretty unfamiliar with the process, as are the umps.

As someone else asked" the ump didn't announce anything, I think when the kid said who he was batter for, he just assumed it was the correct batter. It was only when it was brought up that that he recalled the name.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 04:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,577
Bitter TASTE

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid.
Fact: 8 due up, OHC stated PH for 9, when should OHC announce his substitute?
The DHC doesn't have to prove anything. I would enforce BOO.
Ignorance claimed by the OHC is not a valid justification of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. .
Do you believe or listen to OHC flim-flam for a second? That is not good coaching.
If the coach accepted blame for the BOO, that is good coaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.
Do you really believe the league will take any action?
__________________
SAump

Last edited by SAump; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 05:13pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 07:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northwest suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump View Post
Fact: 8 due up, OHC stated PH for 9, when should OHC announce his substitute?
The DHC doesn't have to prove anything. I would enforce BOO.
Ignorance claimed by the OHC is not a valid justification of events.

Do you believe or listen to OHC flim-flam for a second? That is not good coaching.
If the coach accepted blame for the BOO, that is good coaching.
Do you really believe the league will take any action?
The thread stated that the OHC said the PH was for the 9th batter - he had skipped the 8th, intentionally or not. The DHC says it was for the 8th. The OHC did not claim ignorance. The DHC was pissed when the umpire sided with the OHC. The umpire didn't keep thorough records and was fooled.

The coach sought an advantage through cheating. An umpire's job is to prevent it. The other team has the responsibility to watch for it too. I may not like it but it is very real.

Our league would handle it. There are a number of stories online about coaches who cheated and were caught only to be held accountable by their leagues. I recall one where a coach was caught not playing a child who was not very talented. He walked in a run in order to avoid a slaughter rule just so the kid could bat in the fifth inning. He will never be allowed to coach in that league again. Yes, some leagues get it right.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 07:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,205
If you're in a rule set where you cannot pre-announce subs then when the PH stepped into the box he became an unannounced sub for B8 and legally in the 8 slot..
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2011, 07:20am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
If you're in a rule set where you cannot pre-announce subs then when the PH stepped into the box he became an unannounced sub for B8 and legally in the 8 slot..
I don't think the PH was an "unnanounced" sub. He, as I read it, reported to the PU, who made the notation on the line-up card (edit: after re-reading the OP, I see no indication of whether there was a line-up card or notation.). That makes him a sub for whomever he reported.

The pU screwed up by not announcing this to the defense, so they didn't know what was going on.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2011, 10:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fort Mill, SC
Posts: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I don't think the PH was an "unnanounced" sub. He, as I read it, reported to the PU, who made the notation on the line-up card (edit: after re-reading the OP, I see no indication of whether there was a line-up card or notation.). That makes him a sub for whomever he reported.

The pU screwed up by not announcing this to the defense, so they didn't know what was going on.
Exactly. Say the players were using uniform numbers 1-9 to designate their batting spot. #8 should be due up, but #10 walks up; coach yells "Blue, #10 batting for #9!"

I mark the change on my card, then tell the defense, saying "#10 batting for #9 in the 9-hole." At this point, #10 is in the box, batting for #9. Even though #8 should be in the box, then we've got a simple BOO at this point. Because defense didn't notice it until B1 was hitting, that's not my fault.

Last I checked, it wasn't my job to ensure teams were following their batting order, and I don't check that the batter being changed is supposed to be the next batter -- it's offense and defense's jobs to make sure they're being followed.
__________________
Andrew Senger
Webmaster: RefVB.com
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2011, 04:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I don't think the PH was an "unnanounced" sub. He, as I read it, reported to the PU, who made the notation on the line-up card (edit: after re-reading the OP, I see no indication of whether there was a line-up card or notation.). That makes him a sub for whomever he reported.

The pU screwed up by not announcing this to the defense, so they didn't know what was going on.
My point was that if he was approaching the plate as B8 was due up he can announce all he wants that he's batting for B9 but if you cannot pre-announce subs then he can't legally announce he's batting for B9. Therefore as he steps into the box he's an unannounced bub for B8.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 19, 2011, 09:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
"I recall one where a coach was caught not playing a child who was not very talented. He walked in a run in order to avoid a slaughter rule just so the kid could bat in the fifth inning."

If I'm reading this correctly, I don't see where the coach is some sort of villain. I assume that the league requires that every kid play in the game (and bat). So the coach could have been planning to play the less-talented kid from the fifth inning on but then became faced with a shortened (4-inning) game, so he extended it to get the kid in. Yes, it's ridiculous that he had to walk in a run to prolong the game and satisfy the rule, but should a coach have to play every kid in the first few innings just in case the mercy rule shortens the game?
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT - sad story about Dean Smith Mark Padgett Basketball 1 Wed Jul 21, 2010 09:22pm
Your ruling? mcrowder Softball 30 Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:06am
Ruling..... djpriceii Basketball 7 Thu Dec 14, 2006 02:09pm
FED DH Ruling largeone59 Baseball 8 Tue Aug 02, 2005 05:47am
A Ruling, Please? JJ Baseball 10 Fri Jun 04, 2004 01:27pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:02pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1