BOO ruling in Dizzy Dean

[bob jenkins]

Did the umpire announce the PH (including that he was hitting for B9) to the opposing team? He should have, and this all would have been avoided (or at least there wouldn't be any controversy about it).

[MD Longhorn]

This sounds hokey, almost to the point that OC planned this miscommunication to get B1 up faster.

Lucky for me, I'd have this on my card, and likely would have corrected the coach when he said, "for B9".

I think I have BOO in this sitch as described.

[MikeStrybel]

I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?

As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid. If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?

Generally, about half the youth leagues around here give the option to the team of whether to bat the lineup or not. Those that do, I accept their lineup at the PC and put it in my pocket. I might have pulled one of those out to address BOO at most once per year. Those that don't, I treat exactly the same as I do at a HS PC - look it over, clarify anything marginal, ask the coach to double check it, and then dub it official - and put it in my pocket. For those teams, YES, I do notate subs, PH, etc. And yes - I'm pretty confident I or any of my partners would have corrected a coach who said, #19 going in for B9 if B9 was not currently the next batter ... or at least made sure B9 is what he meant ... and in THAT case, I'm making sure both scorekeeper and opposing coach have the sub completely clear.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Generally, about half the youth leagues around here give the option to the team of whether to bat the lineup or not. Those that do, I accept their lineup at the PC and put it in my pocket. I might have pulled one of those out to address BOO at most once per year. Those that don't, I treat exactly the same as I do at a HS PC - look it over, clarify anything marginal, ask the coach to double check it, and then dub it official - and put it in my pocket. For those teams, YES, I do notate subs, PH, etc. And yes - I'm pretty confident I or any of my partners would have corrected a coach who said, #19 going in for B9 if B9 was not currently the next batter ... or at least made sure B9 is what he meant ... and in THAT case, I'm making sure both scorekeeper and opposing coach have the sub completely clear.

Way to go. I don't work small ball and haven't for a couple decades.

Our league and almost all in my son's travel program in Illinois and Wisconsin don't issue line up cards for 11U.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This sounds hokey, almost to the point that OC planned this miscommunication to get B1 up faster.

That's why my friend thought -- it was just too convenient otherwise.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I can see a good umpire catching this at a Varisty or above level but during youth baseball, especially a house league, this is going to get by most. Around here, for U11 and below, it is a straight batting order - we have 12, so 12 bat. There are no line up cards and the home team keeps the official book.

Do you receive line up cards and keep track of subs, PH, etc. during your small ball games?

As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid. If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.

That was part of the problem -- we almost always bat our entire roster. The only time we don't is during district and state tournaments, where we actually submit roster cards. As a result, we're all pretty unfamiliar with the process, as are the umps.

As someone else asked" the ump didn't announce anything, I think when the kid said who he was batter for, he just assumed it was the correct batter. It was only when it was brought up that that he recalled the name.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As for the ruling, if the DHC cannot prove that he was not aware of the PH for the 8th batter then the ruling is solid.

Fact: 8 due up, OHC stated PH for 9, when should OHC announce his substitute?
The DHC doesn't have to prove anything. I would enforce BOO.
Ignorance claimed by the OHC is not a valid justification of events.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If the OHC planned this it is brilliant coaching, cheating but creative. .

Do you believe or listen to OHC flim-flam for a second? That is not good coaching.
If the coach accepted blame for the BOO, that is good coaching.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Let the league punish him for skipping his (presumably) weakest batter.

Do you really believe the league will take any action?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by SAump

Fact: 8 due up, OHC stated PH for 9, when should OHC announce his substitute?
The DHC doesn't have to prove anything. I would enforce BOO.
Ignorance claimed by the OHC is not a valid justification of events.

Do you believe or listen to OHC flim-flam for a second? That is not good coaching.
If the coach accepted blame for the BOO, that is good coaching.
Do you really believe the league will take any action?

The thread stated that the OHC said the PH was for the 9th batter - he had skipped the 8th, intentionally or not. The DHC says it was for the 8th. The OHC did not claim ignorance. The DHC was pissed when the umpire sided with the OHC. The umpire didn't keep thorough records and was fooled.

The coach sought an advantage through cheating. An umpire's job is to prevent it. The other team has the responsibility to watch for it too. I may not like it but it is very real.

Our league would handle it. There are a number of stories online about coaches who cheated and were caught only to be held accountable by their leagues. I recall one where a coach was caught not playing a child who was not very talented. He walked in a run in order to avoid a slaughter rule just so the kid could bat in the fifth inning. He will never be allowed to coach in that league again. Yes, some leagues get it right.

[Rich Ives]

If you're in a rule set where you cannot pre-announce subs then when the PH stepped into the box he became an unannounced sub for B8 and legally in the 8 slot..

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

If you're in a rule set where you cannot pre-announce subs then when the PH stepped into the box he became an unannounced sub for B8 and legally in the 8 slot..

I don't think the PH was an "unnanounced" sub. He, as I read it, reported to the PU, who made the notation on the line-up card (edit: after re-reading the OP, I see no indication of whether there was a line-up card or notation.). That makes him a sub for whomever he reported.

The pU screwed up by not announcing this to the defense, so they didn't know what was going on.