Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Oh dear God I hope not.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Oh dear God I hope not.

LOTS of umpirs do that at all levels.

[MikeStrybel]

The CWS umpires are miked for the series. Anyone want to bet that they are coaching like top officials in the modern era? Talk with Jim Evans, Joe Brinkman, Tim Tschida or Gerry Davis about whether they offer 'helpful advice' in the guise of going unnoticed. I have.

For what it's worth, don't bring up other sports when discussing what is acceptable in baseball umpiring.

A quick review of this forum shows a tendency for dismissing opinions that cannot be corroborated by a manual of merit. Yet, when discussing the idea of helping a team/player gain an advantage through umpire interjection I find no such support. Hmmmm.

There is a school of thought that allows umpires to guide the game, making it easier to handle impending problems. I understand the need for that and have partaken. I work hard not to do it any more. This reminds me of the 'get the call right' mentality that so many fought a decade ago. They ridiculed conferences, changing plays and instant replay. The contention was that the game allows umpires to do certain things and sometimes they are wrong. That mentality has changed and the very best accept that they are there to make the tough calls and eat crow occassionally for the greater good of the game. Calls are scrutinized more, as is umpire behavior. I provided a very real situation where a coach called me on warning players from breaking the rules. I told it to support the idea that we should not coach, even if it makes us disappear out there. Yes, I believe a lot of it has to do with ratings and approval from the powers that be. It is far easier to tell a catcher that his pitcher is balking rather than simply call it and deal with upset players, coaches and fans. If that is how you teach or umpire, okay, good for you. I try not to do that. Sometimes I forget or get lazy, but by and large I try to just call what I see. If that means a coach will get upset, so be it. I would rather have a coach pissed because I balked his pitcher than to have him confront me because I just cut the other team an illegal break by coaching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The CWS umpires are miked for the series. Anyone want to bet that they are coaching like top officials in the modern era? Talk with Jim Evans, Joe Brinkman, Tim Tschida or Gerry Davis about whether they offer 'helpful advice' in the guise of going unnoticed. I have.

For what it's worth, don't bring up other sports when discussing what is acceptable in baseball umpiring.

I totally disagree about not bringing in other sports, because most top officials I know work other or have at one time. And this is not just a baseball only philosophy where preventive officiating or umpiring is used. And finally this complete comparison to pro umpires is totally different. We are not the pros. They have a lot of things they would never have to deal with and things they do we never have to deal with. I honestly in most cases do not care what pro guys do because if I handled myself they do at the college and HS level, I might not be working very long.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

A quick review of this forum shows a tendency for dismissing opinions that cannot be corroborated by a manual of merit. Yet, when discussing the idea of helping a team/player gain an advantage through umpire interjection I find no such support. Hmmmm.

You keep talking about the Manual, but I have never read in any manual how to look in your uniform or to have it looked pressed and or what mask to use which we often talk about here. Also in Illinois we do not use any Manual (at least not from the NF) so I have no idea what that says or care what it says.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

There is a school of thought that allows umpires to guide the game, making it easier to handle impending problems. I understand the need for that and have partaken. I work hard not to do it any more. This reminds me of the 'get the call right' mentality that so many fought a decade ago. They ridiculed conferences, changing plays and instant replay. The contention was that the game allows umpires to do certain things and sometimes they are wrong. That mentality has changed and the very best accept that they are there to make the tough calls and eat crow occassionally for the greater good of the game. Calls are scrutinized more, as is umpire behavior. I provided a very real situation where a coach called me on warning players from breaking the rules. I told it to support the idea that we should not coach, even if it makes us disappear out there. Yes, I believe a lot of it has to do with ratings and approval from the powers that be. It is far easier to tell a catcher that his pitcher is balking rather than simply call it and deal with upset players, coaches and fans.

Wrong on the part in bold. You said you do not work HS anymore. I still do a great deal of HS (cut back on all of it but it fills a good part of my schedule overall) and I work a lot of college too. College coaches have a lot of say in who works their games than most HS coaches and if you tick off a college coach they tend to hold more of a grudge. Again, most of those umpires I know treat this area almost the same. So that is why I do not understand your point about ratings when ratings do not determine who works in the playoffs (at least in our state as people might think they do) and this has nothing to do with not making a tough call. It has to do with trying to prevent a very borderline infraction like a balk so that every similar action will not have to be called based on a very minor or debatable infraction. But if the infraction is obvious, of course no matter what you have said that needs to be called. And I can tell you I have made a lot of tough calls at all levels only and my ratings are still very high.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If that is how you teach or umpire, okay, good for you. I try not to do that. Sometimes I forget or get lazy, but by and large I try to just call what I see. If that means a coach will get upset, so be it. I would rather have a coach pissed because I balked his pitcher than to have him confront me because I just cut the other team an illegal break by coaching.

I have no problem with you taking a different philosophy, but just understand it appears that many do not seem to agree or do what I suggested in this very specific case. I have never really heard anyone complain big time this from the coaching perspective and certainly do not do it for ratings. I call many balks a year and most of those calls go unchallenged in my experience. And if you think that is to appease some fans or a coach that was probably the funniest thing you said. Coaches and fans come and go; the top officials stay mostly the same.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

At the risk of seeing another ramble and going against multiple PMs asking me not to engage you in logical debate, here goes nothing.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I totally disagree about not bringing in other sports, because most top officials I know work other or have at one time. And this is not just a baseball only philosophy where preventive officiating or umpiring is used. And finally this complete comparison to pro umpires is totally different. We are not the pros. They have a lot of things they would never have to deal with and things they do we never have to deal with. I honestly in most cases do not care what pro guys do because if I handled myself they do at the college and HS level, I might not be working very long.

You consistently bring up other sports that are not relevant to baseball umpiring. What may be acceptable in another sport has nothing to do with baseball officiating. Nothing.

You keep talking about the Manual, but I have never read in any manual how to look in your uniform or to have it looked pressed and or what mask to use which we often talk about here. Also in Illinois we do not use any Manual (at least not from the NF) so I have no idea what that says or care what it says.

I mentioned having a manual to corroborate opinion because that is exactly what others here do. They demand that an umpire show support for a contention.

Anyone who has attended pro school knows that we receive direction on how to dress. Many of us were also told what equipment to use. Still, your comment is ludicrous on face and depserate at best. We are talking about mechanics and those are readily available in a number of media formats.

In Illinois, we use the NFHS rule book, supplemented by the IHSA codes and by-laws. Our clinics cover mechanics and standards. In none of our baseball literature will you find mention of helping a team subvert the rules.

Wrong on the part in bold. You said you do not work HS anymore. I still do a great deal of HS (cut back on all of it but it fills a good part of my schedule overall) and I work a lot of college too.

I have never stated that. Please do not misrepresent what I say here.

College coaches have a lot of say in who works their games than most HS coaches and if you tick off a college coach they tend to hold more of a grudge. Again, most of those umpires I know treat this area almost the same. So that is why I do not understand your point about ratings when ratings do not determine who works in the playoffs (at least in our state as people might think they do) and this has nothing to do with not making a tough call. It has to do with trying to prevent a very borderline infraction like a balk so that every similar action will not have to be called based on a very minor or debatable infraction. But if the infraction is obvious, of course no matter what you have said that needs to be called. And I can tell you I have made a lot of tough calls at all levels only and my ratings are still very high.

For those not familiar with Illinois ratings protocol, I offer this: umpires are rated by coaches for every contest they work and by the top level of umpire partners (Certified) as well. Those numbers are compiled and officials are issued a power rating. It is used to rank you and assign playoffs. While not perfect, it is still a decent way to establish umpire ability. It is a work in progress and our leadership sees room for improvement. I anticpate changes that will allow for personal evaluation and less merit given to coach assessment and Top 15 list involvement. These last two are suspect at the moment.

Collegiate umpires also recieve ratings. I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

I have spoken with numerous officials, both partners and at the clinics I teach, regarding ratings responsibility. Some guys refuse to check equipment, enforce jewelry rules, batter's box infractions or call balks simply because they want to earn top ratings from coaches. They openly admit that they are compelled to give players and teams breaks because they want to advance and are stuck behind higher rated umpires. This is not a difference in philosophy - the original play held a PU and his crew accountable for making a tough and unexpected call. We can debate ad nauseum whether they should have made that call or not, how they demonstrated it, who should have done what, how much tolerance was acceptable to upset coaches, etc. In the end, you umpire to your convictions. I related the story of a partner who tried 'preventive umpiring' (he told the shortstop to tell the pitcher to pause) only to have it blow up in his face. I showed how a coach jumped on me for keeping players from interfering with a play. Some of you find it acceptable to warn pitchers for balking (the rules don't support this) or other "minor" team/player infractions. Good for you. I encourage you to watch the CWS this week. Go to an MiLB park near you or watch the MLB crews at work. They have adopted new personalities out there. They don't ignore, coddle and help others cheat. I choose to emulate them. In the end, your integrity is all you have. I'll take a lower rating in order to sleep better at night. I see no reason to try to convince you to not cheat. If you are inclined to make it easier for yourself to officiate by preventing a player/team from breaking a rule, go ahead. I will not attempt to change that mindest any further. It is not arrogance, rather frustration that drives this now. I have never said I was better than anyone else here nor do I think others are less talented. Umpire to what is expected of you or allows you to be noticed by the powers that be. I'll continue to try to call what I see.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

You consistently bring up other sports that are not relevant to baseball umpiring. What may be acceptable in another sport has nothing to do with baseball officiating. Nothing.

Well then why does everyone from the IHSA, Referee Magazine or even other publications discuss general officiating practices. Just the how the IHSA runs their camps it is clear that what is used in one sport works or is used in another. And if it was not relevant, then people would not have given examples of other sports.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I mentioned having a manual to corroborate opinion because that is exactly what others here do. They demand that an umpire show support for a contention.

Point taken and you are right. But the manuals from the NF are very limited and often do not discuss many advanced officiating techniques and why people attend camps instead of relying on the manual alone.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Anyone who has attended pro school knows that we receive direction on how to dress. Many of us were also told what equipment to use. Still, your comment is ludicrous on face and depserate at best. We are talking about mechanics and those are readily available in a number of media formats.

In Illinois, we use the NFHS rule book, supplemented by the IHSA codes and by-laws. Our clinics cover mechanics and standards. In none of our baseball literature will you find mention of helping a team subvert the rules.

OK, but that is pro school. If I go to a NBA camp those practices do not always translate to lower levels either. Of course there are some best practices that can apply to all levels when the pros teach it, but there are a lot of things that do not translate. For one those players are making money and that is their job. We are dealing with kids that might play baseball to pass the time for their other sports or they will never play after their HS career is over.

I also am directly involved in all my sports with training and every one of those that is run with the IHSA's approval we teach things that are not stated in all literature. Not only is that expected in every case, it is used across the board. I even run a clinic with a football crew member for the IHSA in Peoria and we talk about things that apply across multiple sports. We have to as that is the design of the camp. I cannot just talk about baseball only stuff when I have track, football and volleyball officials in the room.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I have never stated that. Please do not misrepresent what I say here.

I did quote you now.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

For those not familiar with Illinois ratings protocol, I offer this: umpires are rated by coaches for every contest they work and by the top level of umpire partners (Certified) as well. Those numbers are compiled and officials are issued a power rating. It is used to rank you and assign playoffs. While not perfect, it is still a decent way to establish umpire ability. It is a work in progress and our leadership sees room for improvement. I anticpate changes that will allow for personal evaluation and less merit given to coach assessment and Top 15 list involvement. These last two are suspect at the moment.

But that is involved in a larger Power Point system. Coaches and Officials ratings are only worth 5 points and Top 15 is only worth 5 points, so multiple people have a say in your ratings in these two areas. That means you have 30 other points (40 Total Power Points) that factor in your rating system. So to say that ratings drives a philosophy not to piss off coaches and fans that is kind of a misrepresentation in my opinion. For one fans have no say in any ratings system around here, so why would those care about what fans think really? And only varsity games can be used by coaches to rate you (they have to fill out an extensive from to give a single rating). And I can tell you that I did not have the highest ratings and worked a state final in two different sports. Actually my baseball ratings dropped the year I worked a state final and I was not at the total possible points when I worked the same level in football. And my ratings in baseball have been pretty much the same and I have advanced in basketball. Yes ratings matter, but in our Official's Handbook it is clear the sports administrator can make some decisions independent of the ratings and I know they do from things they have stated.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Collegiate umpires also recieve ratings. I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

Well there are many people that do not know about what college umpires have to go through and not every state has a ratings system by the coaches. So you might want to make that clearer as many people might be unaware that our system is not the same as their system.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I have spoken with numerous officials, both partners and at the clinics I teach, regarding ratings responsibility. Some guys refuse to check equipment, enforce jewelry rules, batter's box infractions or call balks simply because they want to earn top ratings from coaches. They openly admit that they are compelled to give players and teams breaks because they want to advance and are stuck behind higher rated umpires. This is not a difference in philosophy - the original play held a PU and his crew accountable for making a tough and unexpected call. We can debate ad nauseum whether they should have made that call or not, how they demonstrated it, who should have done what, how much tolerance was acceptable to upset coaches, etc. In the end, you umpire to your convictions. I related the story of a partner who tried 'preventive umpiring' (he told the shortstop to tell the pitcher to pause) only to have it blow up in his face. I showed how a coach jumped on me for keeping players from interfering with a play. Some of you find it acceptable to warn pitchers for balking (the rules don't support this) or other "minor" team/player infractions. Good for you. I encourage you to watch the CWS this week. Go to an MiLB park near you or watch the MLB crews at work. They have adopted new personalities out there. They don't ignore, coddle and help others cheat. I choose to emulate them. In the end, your integrity is all you have. I'll take a lower rating in order to sleep better at night. I see no reason to try to convince you to not cheat. If you are inclined to make it easier for yourself to officiate by preventing a player/team from breaking a rule, go ahead. I will not attempt to change that mindest any further. It is not arrogance, rather frustration that drives this now. I have never said I was better than anyone else here nor do I think others are less talented. Umpire to what is expected of you or allows you to be noticed by the powers that be. I'll continue to try to call what I see.

This is my problem mostly with this disagreement we are having. I never suggest that someone is cheating or helping the other team. I simply said that it is common practice to use some form of preventative officiating in baseball as others do in other sports. And yes that is relevant if you work other sports because it is common to teach or reference other sports as to what applies. I just was at a basketball camp where I was a clinician. We used a baseball example to make a point about how to make a basketball call. The example made sense to many as they were umpires currently or at some point in their officiating career. Do not take this so over the top that someone is telling you what to do. If you do not want to tell a pitcher that is close to a balk to be aware of it, then so be it. I would work with you and get along. But I would hope that when you do make that call you are not doing it on a borderline play that is so marginal that now every similar action must require a call from me as your partner or I have to hear why we are not consistent based on something we called previously. Again, I can sleep well at night with what I do as well. But do not act like there are those that do not teach this or expect this at all kinds of levels. I cannot speak again for what goes on at pro school; I can just speak for what I have seen D1 umpires to State Final umpires do. And there are so many camps and umpires I have heard talk about these things at all kinds of IHSA camps as well as those run by the NCAA. Again, not trying to convince you to change, just stating that this is widespread. No reason to get all hot and bothered about this, we are having a discussion about what is best to do. We are all not going to agree on every issue.


Peace

[johnnyg08]

I'm still trying to figure out why the headline doesn't say, "Missed base costs team championship"

[MikeStrybel]

Jeff, this is my last post to you regarding thsi topic. You will undoubtedly take the last word.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well then why does everyone from the IHSA, Referee Magazine or even other publications discuss general officiating practices. Just the how the IHSA runs their camps it is clear that what is used in one sport works or is used in another. And if it was not relevant, then people would not have given examples of other sports.

Please stop. Communicating to coaches and athletes is one thing. Giving one an advantage rather than officiating is another. Go ahead, call down state and tell them how you believe it is appropriate to issue warnings that are not legal. Tell them how you believe it is acceptable to coach rather than officiate in certain circumstances. Follow the rule book, Jeff.

Point taken and you are right. But the manuals from the NF are very limited and often do not discuss many advanced officiating techniques and why people attend camps instead of relying on the manual alone.

Again, stop. You cannot support your opinion with anything in writing.

OK, but that is pro school. If I go to a NBA camp those practices do not always translate to lower levels either. Of course there are some best practices that can apply to all levels when the pros teach it, but there are a lot of things that do not translate. For one those players are making money and that is their job. We are dealing with kids that might play baseball to pass the time for their other sports or they will never play after their HS career is over.

You cannot help yourself. Do not bring up other sports. I don't care what other sports allow. Your generalization of baseball players is truly inappropriate.

I also am directly involved in all my sports with training and every one of those that is run with the IHSA's approval we teach things that are not stated in all literature. Not only is that expected in every case, it is used across the board. I even run a clinic with a football crew member for the IHSA in Peoria and we talk about things that apply across multiple sports. We have to as that is the design of the camp. I cannot just talk about baseball only stuff when I have track, football and volleyball officials in the room.

Again with comments about irrelevant sports. Ugggghhh.

I did quote you now.

That must be your way of apologizing for misquoting me.

But that is involved in a larger Power Point system. Coaches and Officials ratings are only worth 5 points and Top 15 is only worth 5 points, so multiple people have a say in your ratings in these two areas. That means you have 30 other points (40 Total Power Points) that factor in your rating system.

I felt no need to explain the entire power system. You can get 5 points simply by waiting until your friend or association furnishes you with the test answers. You can another 5 points simply by attending a clinic each year. Points are important. The difference between a playoff assignment can be a single point. That is why so many do whatever it takes to get high ratings from coaches. I have had coaches tell me that umpires call them to remind their staff to rate them highly and include them on their annual Top 15 list. That is shameful politicking.

So to say that ratings drives a philosophy not to piss off coaches and fans that is kind of a misrepresentation in my opinion.

Logic evades you then.

For one fans have no say in any ratings system around here, so why would those care about what fans think really? And only varsity games can be used by coaches to rate you (they have to fill out an extensive from to give a single rating).

Again, I never said that fans rate us. Please stop mistaking what I said. That is as nice as I can write that.

And I can tell you that I did not have the highest ratings and worked a state final in two different sports. Actually my baseball ratings dropped the year I worked a state final and I was not at the total possible points when I worked the same level in football. And my ratings in baseball have been pretty much the same and I have advanced in basketball. Yes ratings matter, but in our Official's Handbook it is clear the sports administrator can make some decisions independent of the ratings and I know they do from things they have stated.

We have a new Executive Director. He strictly adhered to the Power Ratings this year for playoff assignments.

Well there are many people that do not know about what college umpires have to go through and not every state has a ratings system by the coaches. So you might want to make that clearer as many people might be unaware that our system is not the same as their system.

There is no need to tell NCAA officials about our ratings system. It is well documented. Illinois colleges adhere to the national policy. Some JUCOs here haveeven adopted the rating system for their NCAA brethren.

This is my problem mostly with this disagreement we are having. I never suggest that someone is cheating or helping the other team. I simply said that it is common practice to use some form of preventative officiating in baseball as others do in other sports.

Common practice among officials who want to make their job easier. Call what you see or at least try to.

And yes that is relevant if you work other sports because it is common to teach or reference other sports as to what applies. I just was at a basketball camp where I was a clinician. We used a baseball example to make a point about how to make a basketball call.

Sigh. Roll eyes.

I once attended a prestigious umpire camp which featured an umpire who told us how he was sick of getting hit by pitches and foul balls, so he pushed the catcher forward while the pitch was being delivered. The attendees laughed. I didn't adopt that philosophy. Some things that are taught at camps are simply not worth emulating.

The example made sense to many as they were umpires currently or at some point in their officiating career. Do not take this so over the top that someone is telling you what to do. If you do not want to tell a pitcher that is close to a balk to be aware of it, then so be it. I would work with you and get along. But I would hope that when you do make that call you are not doing it on a borderline play that is so marginal that now every similar action must require a call from me as your partner or I have to hear why we are not consistent based on something we called previously. Again, I can sleep well at night with what I do as well. But do not act like there are those that do not teach this or expect this at all kinds of levels.

There is no such thing as a borderline balk. It either is or isn't.

I cannot speak again for what goes on at pro school; I can just speak for what I have seen D1 umpires to State Final umpires do. And there are so many camps and umpires I have heard talk about these things at all kinds of IHSA camps as well as those run by the NCAA. Again, not trying to convince you to change, just stating that this is widespread. No reason to get all hot and bothered about this, we are having a discussion about what is best to do. We are all not going to agree on every issue.

Jeff, I will let you have the last word. As I have stated numerous times, umpire to what your area expects. If they tolerate umpires who prevent players from breaking the rules, in violation of the umpire accepted official codes of ethics, great. I am hardly 'hot and bothered' by your posts. I find them amusing and a bit challenging to dissect, but hardly confrontational. You can call them as you see necessary. I will too. I will also continue to encourage my fellow umpires to do better than what is expected or talked about secretly between ourselves.

Enjoy your summer. I will do my best to do the same.