Mixing the Set and Windup Positions

[Coach Dykhoff]

SITUATION:
With runners on, a pitcher starts in the stretch, come to the set position, does the stop correctly, starts a windup and throws to the plate. I call time and ask the umpire to speak to him. He states, "I already know what you are going to ask and it is not a Balk".

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MLB RULEBOOK:
8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Positionand the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

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CLOSING
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter
- Going from the stretch to the set position you must raise you foot.

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
- It states you can only do the things listed above. It does not say you can go into a windup.

There is a reason why there are two different positions, each with their own rules. I have always learned (Up to D1 Baseball) that you can not mix and match the two positions.

What are you thoughts on this situation? (Only educated conversation with facts added please).

[mbyron]

It might have been helpful to know more about what the pitcher did and less about the rule (which most of us know).

I'm envisioning a wind-up type move after F1 has come set. The problem I see for that concerns his feet: if he steps with his free foot toward a base, then he cannot legally pitch to the batter.

OTOH, if he merely "winds up" with some motion of his arms, there's nothing illegal about that. It would defeat the purpose of the set position -- which is to minimize the time between the start of the pitch and delivering to the batter -- but that doesn't make it illegal.

Technically, it's impossible to "mix" the two positions. F1's feet determine whether he is in the windup or the set, and the requirements of each position apply once he has taken his position on the rubber. So the question really concerns whether his delivery is legal, and to rule on that I'd have to know more about it.

[bob jenkins]

I'll also point out that I *think* this move is legal in LL (someone more versed in that code will need to verify), and coach didn't say specifically which rule were being used (I doubt it was "pure" OBR).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

CLOSING
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter
- Going from the stretch to the set position you must raise you foot.

Not positive this is true. If the player you're talking about DID, you have an issue. But if he didn't, this is just a bizarre windup.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

SITUATION:
With runners on, a pitcher starts in the stretch, come to the set position, does the stop correctly, starts a windup and throws to the plate. I call time and ask the umpire to speak to him. He states, "I already know what you are going to ask and it is not a Balk".

=====

MLB RULEBOOK:
8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Positionand the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

=====

CLOSING
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter
- Going from the stretch to the set position you must raise you foot.

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
- It states you can only do the things listed above. It does not say you can go into a windup.

There is a reason why there are two different positions, each with their own rules. I have always learned (Up to D1 Baseball) that you can not mix and match the two positions.

What are you thoughts on this situation? (Only educated conversation with facts added please).

Stretch is NOT a pitching position - it is a movement prior to coming set.

From your description it is unclear as to what the pitcher's motion really was. For example, if he just raised his arms like we think of in a windup, but only did the one step toward the plate then it's legal.

And, as Bob J pointed out, in LL 12U you are allowed to do a step back then forward windup motion from the set position.

[Coach Dykhoff]

R1 is on 1B.

F1 is right handed.

F1 goes into the stretch with ball in right hand and glove hand on his front leg.

F1 comes to the set position and stops with both hands in front of him.
----- Free and Pivot Foot approx a foot apart.
----- Back to the runner on 1B
----- Perpendicular to the batter.

F1 steps straight backwards (Towards 1B) with hit free foot.

F1 kicks leg forward and continues the pitch to the plate.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

R1 is on 1B.

F1 is right handed.

F1 goes into the stretch with ball in right hand and glove hand on his front leg.

F1 comes to the set position and stops with both hands in front of him.
----- Free and Pivot Foot approx a foot apart.
----- Back to the runner on 1B
----- Perpendicular to the batter.

F1 steps straight backwards (Towards 1B) with hit free foot.

F1 kicks leg forward and continues the pitch to the plate.

Based on just that, I have nothing. What rule (in the windup section) do you think he broke? "Free" can include where it sounds like his foot was.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

F1 steps straight backwards (Towards 1B) with hit free foot.

F1 kicks leg forward and continues the pitch to the plate.

Assuming he started with his feet in the set position, this is a balk for stepping toward 1B without throwing.

I do not know LL rules, so if this is LL you'll have to check with those guys.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'll also point out that I *think* this move is legal in LL (someone more versed in that code will need to verify), and coach didn't say specifically which rule were being used (I doubt it was "pure" OBR).

We use the MLB rulebook unless we have a specific rule to change or add. This is a 13/14 Rec League where the players are just learning to steal and pickoff. I do not want the kids to learn the wrong mechanics early and allow the umpires to allow it to happen. That is why I want to get clarification on this rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Assuming he started with his feet in the set position, this is a balk for stepping toward 1B without throwing.

I do not know LL rules, so if this is LL you'll have to check with those guys.

Consider this to be the windup (albeit unorthodox) position ... we've all seen the backward step on a windup go further toward 1st than 2nd. I still see nothing wrong here, at least as I'm visualizing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Based on just that, I have nothing. What rule (in the windup section) do you think he broke? "Free" can include where it sounds like his foot was.

Mike, I'm reading this F1 as starting in the set, not the windup. That would make more sense with a runner on.

I could be wrong: F1 cannot both be "perpendicular to the batter" (sounds like he's facing the batter in the windup) and have "his back to the runner at 1B" (sounds like he's facing 3B in the set).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

F1 comes to the set position and stops with both hands in front of him.
----- Free and Pivot Foot approx a foot apart.
----- Back to the runner on 1B
----- Perpendicular to the batter.

The legality of the move depends on what position he's in. Where are his feet relative to the rubber? Is his free foot contacting the rubber or in front of it?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Mike, I'm reading this F1 as starting in the set, not the windup. That would make more sense with a runner on.

I could be wrong: F1 cannot both be "perpendicular to the batter" (sounds like he's facing the batter in the windup) and have "his back to the runner at 1B" (sounds like he's facing 3B in the set).

With the pitcher stepping back, this HAS to be a windup... so compare his actions to that rule to determine if he broke one.

Imagine pitcher with feet appearing to face 3rd, but the body facing home... could that not be "facing the batter"?

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Mike, I'm reading this F1 as starting in the set, not the windup. That would make more sense with a runner on.

I could be wrong: F1 cannot both be "perpendicular to the batter" (sounds like he's facing the batter in the windup) and have "his back to the runner at 1B" (sounds like he's facing 3B in the set).

We will say parallel then.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

With the pitcher stepping back, this HAS to be a windup... so compare his actions to that rule to determine if he broke one.

Imagine pitcher with feet appearing to face 3rd, but the body facing home... could that not be "facing the batter"?

As you know, what he does during the pitching motion does not determine whether he's in the windup or the set. It's strictly the position of his feet when he takes the rubber.