Mixing the Set and Windup Positions

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

SITUATION:
With runners on, a pitcher starts in the stretch, come to the set position, does the stop correctly, starts a windup and throws to the plate. I call time and ask the umpire to speak to him. He states, "I already know what you are going to ask and it is not a Balk".

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MLB RULEBOOK:
8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Positionand the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

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CLOSING
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter
- Going from the stretch to the set position you must raise you foot.

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
- It states you can only do the things listed above. It does not say you can go into a windup.

There is a reason why there are two different positions, each with their own rules. I have always learned (Up to D1 Baseball) that you can not mix and match the two positions.

What are you thoughts on this situation? (Only educated conversation with facts added please).

Stretch is NOT a pitching position - it is a movement prior to coming set.

From your description it is unclear as to what the pitcher's motion really was. For example, if he just raised his arms like we think of in a windup, but only did the one step toward the plate then it's legal.

And, as Bob J pointed out, in LL 12U you are allowed to do a step back then forward windup motion from the set position.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

SITUATION:
With runners on, a pitcher starts in the stretch, come to the set position, does the stop correctly, starts a windup and throws to the plate. I call time and ask the umpire to speak to him. He states, "I already know what you are going to ask and it is not a Balk".....

Coach with all due respect, It's not my job as an umpire to "coach" a kid. From what you describe it very well may be a balk, depending on the specific age and league rule set you're playing under. Umpires at varying levels will allow some infractions go un-punished for the good of the game at that specific level. That is, sure it's a balk, but is he really gaining an advantage with what he's doing at that particular level of play? From what you describe, no, that particular pitcher isn't gaining an advantage over your baserunners. It's not just what is written in the rule book, it's also what was the intent of the rule. If it were me coaching, I'd have my kid standing on the next base every pitch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Coach with all due respect, It's not my job as an umpire to "coach" a kid. From what you describe it very well may be a balk, depending on the specific age and league rule set you're playing under. Umpires at varying levels will allow some infractions go un-punished for the good of the game at that specific level. That is, sure it's a balk, but is he really gaining an advantage with what he's doing at that particular level of play? From what you describe, no, that particular pitcher isn't gaining an advantage over your baserunners. It's not just what is written in the rule book, it's also what was the intent of the rule. If it were me coaching, I'd have my kid standing on the next base every pitch.

+1

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

We use the MLB rulebook unless we have a specific rule to change or add. This is a 13/14 Rec League where the players are just learning to steal and pickoff. I do not want the kids to learn the wrong mechanics early and allow the umpires to allow it to happen. That is why I want to get clarification on this rule.

Unless you're the league director, how is the highlighted portion your job? For the life of me, I can't imagine letting any coach dictate to me what I'm going to allow.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

+1



Unless you're the league director, how is the highlighted portion your job? For the life of me, I can't imagine letting any coach dictate to me what I'm going to allow.

As I stated "I do not want" not "I am going to prevent this from happening".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

As I stated "I do not want" not "I am going to prevent this from happening".

Fair enough, but I thought the language (particularly the first "allow") I highlighted was a bit too authoritative for a coach. At this age group (I work basketball, so there may be "cultural" differences), I get coaches who think they can coach the officials as well, and that doesn't go over well with me.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fair enough, but I thought the language (particularly the first "allow") I highlighted was a bit too authoritative for a coach. At this age group (I work basketball, so there may be "cultural" differences), I get coaches who think they can coach the officials as well, and that doesn't go over well with me.

I voice my concerns when I feel they are wrong but do not coach them (That is what their Head Umpire is for). And sorry for sounding authoritative, that was not my intent.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Coach with all due respect, It's not my job as an umpire to "coach" a kid. From what you describe it very well may be a balk, depending on the specific age and league rule set you're playing under. Umpires at varying levels will allow some infractions go un-punished for the good of the game at that specific level. That is, sure it's a balk, but is he really gaining an advantage with what he's doing at that particular level of play? From what you describe, no, that particular pitcher isn't gaining an advantage over your baserunners. It's not just what is written in the rule book, it's also what was the intent of the rule. If it were me coaching, I'd have my kid standing on the next base every pitch.

In this league the pitcher gets two balk warning (Meant to teach the kid what he is doing wrong). I know it is not an Umpire's job to teach the kid the game but in the league I am in, it kind of is. The only thing that got me heated was the comment and attitude of the Umpire when I stopped the game.

The first couple times my runner came back to 1st because of the step. After I called time and got the reaction of the Umpire we ran all over him. I am not saying anyone here would act like this but I just wanted a clarification and a discussion.