Feinting to First

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Dash, if it happened, would you balk him for starting and stopping? I guess if the ball fell out of his glove and didn't cross the foul line, that would work, too.

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MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

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You can not drop the ball while you are on the mound. The foul line has nothing to do with this rule.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

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MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

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You can not drop the ball while you are on the mound. The foul line has nothing to do with this rule.

Yes it does - if you read the interpretations you will find that if it crosses the foul line it's ruled a ball, not a balk.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Yes it does - if you read the interpretations you will find that if it crosses the foul line it's ruled a ball, not a balk.

That interpretation is specifically cited when the ball is dropped during a pitch, not a throw to first. And, if I recall, since I don't have my book with me, JEA makes a distinction between the two.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

That interpretation is specifically cited when the ball is dropped during a pitch, not a throw to first. And, if I recall, since I don't have my book with me, JEA makes a distinction between the two.

Actually the MLBUM says if a pitched ball slips .. .

So Andy Pettitte starts his delivery from set and drops the ball. Given his "move" how do you distinguish whether it was a pitch or not?

Or a pitcher does a "swing back" toward 2B, from which he can either pitch or go to 2B, and drops the ball - how do you distinguish?

Ball hits the ground and rolls obver the line - ball.

That;s my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Coach Dykhoff]

If he drops the ball while he is on the rubber it is a balk.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Actually the MLBUM says if a pitched ball slips .. .

So Andy Pettitte starts his delivery from set and drops the ball. Given his "move" how do you distinguish whether it was a pitch or not?

Or a pitcher does a "swing back" toward 2B, from which he can either pitch or go to 2B, and drops the ball - how do you distinguish?

Ball hits the ground and rolls obver the line - ball.

That;s my story and I'm sticking to it.

That's okay. I understand you and many others feel that way. I'm just saying that the interps you referred to do not back you up. They specifically mention a "pitched" ball, not a ball dropped when the pitcher is not in the process of delivering a pitch.

[Coach Dykhoff]

YouTube - Pitching from the Stretch Basics

1:16

Youtube - Balk Rules

1:19

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

YouTube - Pitching from the Stretch Basics

1:16

Youtube - Balk Rules

1:19

youtube isn't exactly the prime source for this.

Try getting the Evans balk video from his web site.

[Coach Dykhoff]

I will use another rule citation then.

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MLB RULE 8.01

(d) If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be called a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

Rule 8.01(d) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

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[justanotherblue]

Coach read 801d comment again slowly this time.....

Rule 8.01(d) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

So, if a dropped ball doesn't cross the line, it's a balk, with runners on. If it crosses the line, it's a ball. Can't make it any clearer than that. That said, chances are if a pitcher drops the ball while on the rubber it's not going to cross the foul lines. Therefore you'll have your balk.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Coach read 801d comment again slowly this time.....

Rule 8.01(d) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

So, if a dropped ball doesn't cross the line, it's a balk, with runners on. If it crosses the line, it's a ball. Can't make it any clearer than that.

The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

You might want to read it slowly. The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

Let me try this one more time. The second ISN'T classifying "both". It's telling you that a ball that slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line is a ball, not a balk. It is also telling you that a pitch/slip out of a pitchers hand with no runners on base is a no pitch, should it not cross a foul line. The last portion is telling you that if the ball doesn't cross the foul lines and there are runners on base, it's a balk. Just as Rich and other's have tried to tell you. But were just umpires here, not coaches, so also check out the MLBUM, JEA, Jaksa/Roder as well as BRD, all cover this particular play. Because to fully comprehend the rules of baseball, you need to reference the above mentioned manuals, in order to be a competent umpire and or understand the rules of baseball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

You might want to read it slowly. The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

This is a grammatical error in the rules. With runners on, if the dropped ball crosses the foul line, it is a ball, not a balk. Otherwise, it's a balk. With no runners, it is a ball if it crosses the foul line, and No Pitch if it doesn't. That's the rule.

Jim Evans has identified over 235 errors in the rulebook, and not all of them have been fixed yet.

[Coach Dykhoff]

So this rule has nothing to do with it?

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MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

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[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

So this rule has nothing to do with it?

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MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

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If you can produce one single piece of documented evidence of a dropped, not thrown, ball rolling into foul territory from the pitching rubber, I will continue this ridiculous discussion. Perhaps the rule needs to be rewritten so it matches 8.01(d), the other poorly worded rule.

As was stated, we don't just go by the rule book for decisions. This is at all levels of baseball, including professional. We as umpires use all the alphabet soup-named manuals that were already mentioned, which include casebook plays and official interpretations by the governing powers at each level of baseball.