Coverage Question

[Spence]

Disclaimer: Not an umpire. Not a coach. Wasn't at this game. Just trying to answer a question for someone that was.

R1 1 out.

Groundball. Force out at 2nd. Throw to first.

2 man crew.

1. Is the field ump responsible for determining the outs at both 2nd and 1st?
2. If so, is the FU also responsible for determining if the FPSR was violated?

In this game there was contact between R1 and F6 at the base and the question came up as to who has responsibility for that on this type of play.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

Spence,

1. Yes. The Base Ump is responsible for both the call at 2B and the call at 1B.

2. You might get two different answers on this one. I believe that the BU is responsible for a possible FPSR violation at 2B UNTIL the pivot man releases the throw. Once the throw is released, the PU is responsible for the FPSR violation.

Others might suggest that the PU has primary responsibility for the FPSR violation throughout the play.

JM

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

1. Yes. The Base Ump is responsible for both the call at 2B and the call at 1B.

2. You might get two different answers on this one. I believe that the BU is responsible for a possible FPSR violation at 2B UNTIL the pivot man releases the throw. Once the throw is released, the PU is responsible for the FPSR violation.

Others might suggest that the PU has primary responsibility for the FPSR violation throughout the play.

JM

Nothing to add but a "me too."

Personally, I'll go with JM's first answer. The BU has primary on it until the throw is released, but as the PU, I'm watching the entire play at second to make sure something doesn't happen just as the BU turns to take the call at first.

[jophyal]

I agree with both. I, as PU will watch the entire evnt at second on my way up to third.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jophyal

I agree with both. I, as PU will watch the entire evnt at second on my way up to third.

Why are you going to third?

R1 only, ball never leaves the infield, you do not have coverage at third.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

1. Yes. The Base Ump is responsible for both the call at 2B and the call at 1B.

2. You might get two different answers on this one. I believe that the BU is responsible for a possible FPSR violation at 2B UNTIL the pivot man releases the throw. Once the throw is released, the PU is responsible for the FPSR violation.

Others might suggest that the PU has primary responsibility for the FPSR violation throughout the play.

JM

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Nothing to add but a "me too."

Personally, I'll go with JM's first answer. The BU has primary on it until the throw is released, but as the PU, I'm watching the entire play at second to make sure something doesn't happen just as the BU turns to take the call at first.

Agree.

[Spence]

One more question in regards to the play at 2nd.

R1 slides into 2nd and then pops up and makes contact with the SS. FPSR violation?

[jophyal]

rich, what rotation do you have with a runner on first as PU. we are trained to have play at third, if there is one. lets say that F4 chooses to make play at first and R1 rounds second and play is made on him at third. where are you?

[UmpJM]

Spence,

Under FED rules (but not NCAA) a "pop-up" slide into the pivot man is a violation of the FPSR.

JM

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by jophyal

rich, what rotation do you have with a runner on first as PU. we are trained to have play at third, if there is one. lets say that F4 chooses to make play at first and R1 rounds second and play is made on him at third. where are you?

jophyal,

There are two schools of thought on the "1st to 3rd" rotation.

A. If the ball does not leave the infield, the BU "has it all" on the bases, and the PU "stays home".

B. Whether or not the ball leaves the infield, the PU will have any play on the R1 at 3B.

I believe Rich is suggesting he subscribes to "A".

The CCA manual (NCAA mechanics) said "A" last year, and this year says "B".

I am fine with doing it either way, but it is something I ALWAYS pregame with my partner.

JM

[jophyal]

jm, thanks. i have always been a "b" guy and we normally rotate that way. I can see where "a" would save my legs in the summer when we do 3 games in this heat.

[UmpJM]

jophyal,

It seems to be one of those things that "pendulums" over the years.

From my experience, each has its advantages/disadvantages, and "personal preference" of one over the other is largely determined by what was considered "proper" when a given individual first "learned" the rotation.

JM

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

A. If the ball does not leave the infield, the BU "has it all" on the bases, and the PU "stays home".

B. Whether or not the ball leaves the infield, the PU will have any play on the R1 at 3B.

I am fine with doing it either way, but it is something I ALWAYS pregame with my partner.

JM

+1, Don't start a game without it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jophyal

rich, what rotation do you have with a runner on first as PU. we are trained to have play at third, if there is one. lets say that F4 chooses to make play at first and R1 rounds second and play is made on him at third. where are you?

I'm trailing up towards the left side of the mound and when I recognize F4 is throwing to first, I move in that direction in case a wild throw goes out of play or near a fence/line.

And if the ball gets thrown back to third, I'm ready to take a wild throw towards the fence/line and also am in a good position to make a call at the plate.

As you can tell, I've never really bought into making the PU cover third in this situation (where the ball doesn't leave the infield). I can easily get proper angles on both plays (at first and back at third) as the base umpire.

Last week I was working with a strange partner who showed up late for a DH and so I was prepared for anything. We had a routine ground ball hit with R1, play made to first, ball gets away, no fence, ball rolling towards DBT. My usual partners would have been on that ball, but instead this guy was standing at third base (even though the runner didn't try to advance until the throw got away).

(I'm OK with a partner wanting to cover third, but I think the discussion changes when there's no fence and we have to deal with DBT lines on the field.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

+1, Don't start a game without it.

I'm not saying that you guys are overemphasizing the importance of a pregame, but:

If you're an experienced umpire, you can easily adapt to a partner that decides to cover third there, even if that's not your normal coverage. See partner, let him take call. As the BU, I'm never assuming the PU is going to be there anyway -- what if he trips over a bat or his own feet on the way to third? It's my call until I recognize he's going to be there (or he calls me off), so I prepare for the play at first as though I'm going to have to bounce back anyway.