over rule or not

[cb33]

I was working as the BU when PU declared dead ball after batter was hit by pitch. The pitch struck the ground before hitting the batter and the PU did not award the batter first base. This was a game between 12 year old teams, and neither coach said anything about the call. As BU should I have over ruled and overturned the PU's call and awarded batter first base? I was told the PU was experienced so I wasn't sure what his reaction would have been if I had done this. My goal is to get the call right.

[dash_riprock]

By rule, you cannot overrule him. You can give him information that might convince him to change his call, but he must be the one to change it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

By rule, you cannot overrule him. You can give him information that might convince him to change his call, but he must be the one to change it.

Information such as, "You'd be a moron not to award that kid 1B, cuz he was HBP!"

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Information such as, "You'd be a moron not to award that kid 1B, cuz he was HBP!"

Unless, of course, he had reason, by rule, to not award the base. It happens.

[DG]

Originally Posted by cb33

I was working as the BU when PU declared dead ball after batter was hit by pitch. The pitch struck the ground before hitting the batter and the PU did not award the batter first base. This was a game between 12 year old teams, and neither coach said anything about the call. As BU should I have over ruled and overturned the PU's call and awarded batter first base? I was told the PU was experienced so I wasn't sure what his reaction would have been if I had done this. My goal is to get the call right.

Might be some other reason he did not award, like allowing himself to be hit. In any event, I think this is good post game discussion, since no one complained and he did not ask for help.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by DG

Might be some other reason he did not award, like allowing himself to be hit. In any event, I think this is good post game discussion, since no one complained and he did not ask for help.

See myth # 29.

[kylejt]

I hate the "get the call right" mentality.

It should be "get the procedure right".

On a play like this, the manager needs to do his job. He needs to go to the PU, ask what he had, and if he'd get help from the BU on the call.

Maybe the PU thought the batter should have moved, and intentionally held his ground. Who knows? But there's a proper way for these things to play out.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I hate the "get the call right" mentality.

It should be "get the procedure right".

I hate when umpires play with words instead of centering on getting the call right regardless.

On a play like this, the manager needs to do his job. He needs to go to the PU, ask what he had, and if he'd get help from the BU on the call.

Maybe the PU thought the batter should have moved, and intentionally held his ground. Who knows? But there's a proper way for these things to play out.

Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

[kylejt]

How far are you willing to take this? Are you also going jump the gun on checkswings, without waiting for the PU to ask you? At what point are we going to require the manager to do his job?

I'm all for getting the calls right, but the proper procedure needs to be maintained to do so.

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

I hate when umpires play with words instead of centering on getting the call right regardless.Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

Man, I was really on a role agreeing with StB when all of a sudden he comes in with this. On calls that belong to your partner, you let your partner make the call. No "overruling". If you have information you want to pass on you can signal your partner to that effect (using the signal agreed upon in your pre-game). If he wants your help he can come to you. If one of the HC's doesn't think it is important enough to come out and ask about the call or ask your partner to get help, it's no longer any concern of yours - play ball. Get the call right, but don't go stepping on toes ("Fools rush in"). Follow proper procedure first.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

I hate when umpires play with words instead of centering on getting the call right regardless.Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

IMO, you're too smart to actually believe this. You're just arguing for arguing's sake.

There are several guys who have come and gone from these boards that have taken this avenue. I hope you're not another one.

[cookie]

Kylejt wrote: "...On a play like this, the manager needs to do his job. He needs to go to the PU, ask what he had, and if he'd get help from the BU on the call..."

A similar incident like this happened to me last week in a JV game. I'm in the C pos. with a runner on 3rd. F1 pitches into the dirt; ball bounces into the batter's leg, then bounces off the catcher past him. R3 runs home. PU makes no call only indicating that R3is safe at the plate. (I thought I definitely saw a pitch hit the ground and then hit the batter, but I remained silent.) Defensive coach asks the PU "Wasn't that a dead ball?" Asks him twice before PU comes out to me. PU tells me that the ball hit the ground first. I told him that it doesn't matter; the ball hit the batter directly after hitting the ground. It's still HBP. PU took my information, then directed the batter to first and returned the runner back to 3rd. Play on...

[bob jenkins]

If you offer unsolicited help on some of the plays mentioned here, you might as well "vote" on every call.

Some calls (including most "rule mistakes") get unsolicited help. Some don't. Some can't be changed even if help is sought. Knowing when to do what (as either the calling umpire or the non-calling umpire) is part of the art of umpiring.

The NCAA book privides some good guidance here.

On the OP -- if I don't know why PU kept the runner at the plate, I let it go. Maybe he judged the batter moved into the pitch (that's a judgement call). If I hear that he kept the batter there because "the ball bounced", then it becomes a rules issue and I'm far more likely to go in.

[bigda65]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

See myth # 29.

Rich,

Im surprised you didnt say,

"The umpire wasn't or isn't calling that today time to shut up"

or direct quote

"The umpire already made it clear he was calling it. It won't get fixed mid game. Time to shut up."

[MD Longhorn]

Why are we assuming PU made the wrong call? Why would you, as BU, make that assumption on the field? Wow. If I made this call and you marched in to try to "overrule" me, you'd keep going and I'd work the rest alone. What nonsense.