over rule or not

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by cb33

When I see it happen with my eyes, I don't consider that assuming. The batter tried to avoid the pitch and was hit. The kid should be awarded first base. If you would have made the same call as the PU in this game then you would have been wrong to. Just saying...

Please look in the rulebook and see where you are never allowed to overrule another official.

Then umpire another 1000 games or so. Then come back here and (not ask) answer this question.

Joel

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cb33

When I see it happen with my eyes, I don't consider that assuming. The batter tried to avoid the pitch and was hit. The kid should be awarded first base. If you would have made the same call as the PU in this game then you would have been wrong to. Just saying...

No offense, but why do you think your opinion from 90-ish feet away of whether the batter tried to avoid the pitch or not should be substituted for that of your partner (remember - he's your PARTNER) who is 3-5 feet away. I guarantee you that if I made this call and ordered the batter to stay in the box, I had a reason. You should respect your partner enough to assume that he had a reason.

Consider this the next time you think about "overruling" or "correcting" your partner... there's a reason we have areas of responsibility. Obviously, you and your partner saw things differently - the default should be that the umpire whose call this is had the better view, unless that umpire himself feels he missed something for a reason. It is the height of arrogance for any umpire to assume his vision of a play from many feet away was better than his partners, right on the spot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kylejt

How far are you willing to take this? Are you also going jump the gun on checkswings, without waiting for the PU to ask you? At what point are we going to require the manager to do his job?

I'm all for getting the calls right, but the proper procedure needs to be maintained to do so.

This is why I also hate the "We got to get it right" crowd as well. If we are not out there to get it right we should not be out there. But that does not mean we should not allow people to do their job and if they make a mistake, they make a mistake.

Peace

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bigda65

Rich,

Im surprised you didnt say,

"The umpire wasn't or isn't calling that today time to shut up"

or direct quote

"The umpire already made it clear he was calling it. It won't get fixed mid game. Time to shut up."

Myth # 29 is that if you're hit by a bounced pitch you don't get to go to 1B.

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

I hate when umpires play with words instead of centering on getting the call right regardless.Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

Man, I was really on a role agreeing with StB when all of a sudden he comes in with this. On calls that belong to your partner, you let your partner make the call. No "overruling". If you have information you want to pass on you can signal your partner to that effect (using the signal agreed upon in your pre-game). If he wants your help he can come to you. If one of the HC's doesn't think it is important enough to come out and ask about the call or ask your partner to get help, it's no longer any concern of yours - play ball. Get the call right, but don't go stepping on toes ("Fools rush in"). Follow proper procedure first.

[Simply The Best]

Me:Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

On calls that belong to your partner, you let your partner make the call. No "overruling".

Which I said earlier in this thread.

1.If you have information you want to pass on you can signal your partner to that effect (using the signal agreed upon in your pre-game). 2.If he wants your help he can come to you. 3. If one of the HC's doesn't think it is important enough to come out and ask about the call or ask your partner to get help, it's no longer any concern of yours - play ball.

1. - Correct. 2. Agree. 3.No way. If you know your partner has the wrong call, you need to let him know. Waiting for a manger to catch the incorrect call is unethical and serves the game, the players ans the officials poorly.

Get the call right, but don't go stepping on toes ("Fools rush in"). Follow proper procedure first.

Toes heal. Ultimately, it is all about how you perceive yourself as an official and how you wish to lead your life, isn't it?

[Adam]

In basketball, this is known as ball-watching, and is always justified by "get the call right" newer officials who don't understand the importance of procedure, primary coverage, and crew integrity. It's the same guy who would respond to a coach by saying, "Yeah, coach, I thought it was a bad call too, but he won't budge. Sorry."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Me:Screw proper. Get the call right. Properly if possible, or not.

That is great but just because you come in from 100 feet away does not mean you got it right either.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

1. - Correct. 2. Agree. 3.No way. If you know your partner has the wrong call, you need to let him know. Waiting for a manger to catch the incorrect call is unethical and serves the game, the players ans the officials poorly.

What do you mean "know your partner has the wrong call?" Most judgment calls are just that, judgments. If they are in the right position how am I going to "know when they got something right or wrong all the time?" It is one thing if we are talking about rules, but a judgment call means that they made a judgment call. This situation we are talking about is a judgment call. Those can have different opinions. This has nothing to do with ethics, this has to do with the umpire have responsibilities and if you want to do their job, maybe you need to be on that field alone. Or they do not need to be there at all if they cannot do their job.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Toes heal. Ultimately, it is all about how you perceive yourself as an official and how you wish to lead your life, isn't it?

Yes and in life many people have different roles or jobs to do. That is why in the medical profession you have different levels of nurses and different doctors doing different things to possibly help in a hospital.

If procedure does not matter, why as base umpires we do not give our opinion on a checked swing until we are asked? Or better yet why do you not see BUs give ball/strike calls? Do not say procedures do not matter when we use them all the time in our job as umpires.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why are we assuming PU made the wrong call? Why would you, as BU, make that assumption on the field? Wow. If I made this call and you marched in to try to "overrule" me, you'd keep going and I'd work the rest alone. What nonsense.

Amen, preach on.

come out and overrule a banger (I had him safe, no tag. He had a tag and out) I had at 3rd last year. Had no business coming out from behind the plate at all, and flat out came to me and told me he was overruling me, and that he would take all the heat. Which didn't happen by the way. You don't offer help on JUDGEMENT calls unless asked by the umpire who made the call.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is great but just because you come in from 100 feet away does not mean you got it right either.
What do you mean "know your partner has the wrong call?"

Partner makes call. Partner is wrong. E.g. he didn't see the ball not caught because it landed out of his sight line. C'mon, Rut, surely you don't need this explained to you.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In basketball, this is known as ball-watching, and is always justified by "get the call right" newer officials who don't understand the importance of procedure, primary coverage, and crew integrity.

Under your definition the crew has no integrity if they are willing to overlook a wrong call when one of the crew knows that is the case. Ultimately, it is all about how you perceive yourself as an official and a person and how you wish to lead your life, isn't it?

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we are not out there to get it right we should not be out there. But that does not mean we should not allow people to do their job and if they make a mistake, they make a mistake.

Which ultimately means you're first sentence above is BS, Rut.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Partner makes call. Partner is wrong. E.g. he didn't see the ball not caught because it landed out of his sight line. C'mon, Rut, surely you don't need this explained to you.

You are the one that said throw out the procedures. I never said that we should not get plays right, but I am not going to dismiss a partner's call because I think they got it wrong either without following a procedure. I think you need to spell out what you mean if the suggestion is anyone can come in and change an "incorrect" call they believe took place. You should be clearer or specific as to what you mean. I am not trying to read your mind.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Which ultimately means you're first sentence above is BS, Rut.

First of all most of what I read from you is BS and that appears to be what the majority here think.

Secondly I come from an officiating background that if you cannot do the job they will find someone else to do it in your place. Or you will not be working very long. Not everyone can save us from a missed call. And if you can see what I am doing several feet away, what the heck did you miss? Half the time I do not even see plays my partner are involved in because I am watching other things. But as Snaqs said, there are always ball-watchers among us.

Peace

[cookie]

Kylejt wrote: "...On a play like this, the manager needs to do his job. He needs to go to the PU, ask what he had, and if he'd get help from the BU on the call..."

A similar incident like this happened to me last week in a JV game. I'm in the C pos. with a runner on 3rd. F1 pitches into the dirt; ball bounces into the batter's leg, then bounces off the catcher past him. R3 runs home. PU makes no call only indicating that R3is safe at the plate. (I thought I definitely saw a pitch hit the ground and then hit the batter, but I remained silent.) Defensive coach asks the PU "Wasn't that a dead ball?" Asks him twice before PU comes out to me. PU tells me that the ball hit the ground first. I told him that it doesn't matter; the ball hit the batter directly after hitting the ground. It's still HBP. PU took my information, then directed the batter to first and returned the runner back to 3rd. Play on...