BOO & Continuous Action

[GerryBlue]

1) Able is R2. Charles follows batting out of turn. Charles walks on a wild pitch, with R2 going to third on the wild pitch. Defense appeals BOO, Baker is declared out. Does R2 return to 2nd?
2) Able is R1. Charles follows batting out of turn. R1 is off on the pitch, which turns out to be ball four. R1 overruns 2nd, and the catcher immediately throws trying catch the runner at 2nd. Is the catcher's throw a play which would negate an appeal for BOO?

[UmpJM]

Gerry Blue,

If I'm the umpire...

1. Yes. The R2 is returned. His advance was not "during" the improper batter's at bat.

2. No. The defense has not lost its opportunity to appeal the BOOT.

JM

[mbyron]

JM: are you sure?

[UmpJM]

mbyron,

Not to the degree I'd like to be on #1.

But, pretty much, yes.

JM

[Dave Reed]

mbyron's implied ruling is correct: R2's advance stands.
6.07(b):
(b) When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out, and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first pitch to the next batter of either team, or before any play or attempted play, the umpire shall
(1) declare the proper batter out; and (2) nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

NOTE: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.

b2 says a runner is returned if the advance was due to B/R's batted ball or advance to first base. Neither event occurred in the OP.

The Note is irrelevant since the AB had ended.

J?R clearly affirms this as the correct ruling but the MLBUM is worded ambigously.

[mbyron]

Thanks, Dave. I phrased my response as a question rather than assertion because I couldn't find anything definitive about the OP's play 1. As I read the rule, however, the principle seems to be to remove any advantage gained by the offense due to the actions of the improper batter, including advancing due to a walk. By the same token, the rule explicitly permits any advance due to the actions of the defense, such as a balk, wild pitch, etc.

The ambiguity in the rule concerns actions by the defense sufficient to advance the runner that occur after the batter's time at bat (and so not covered by the NOTE that Dave quotes). Since the BR is typically advancing at this time on a batted ball or a walk, do we invoke the principle denying advantage to the offense or allowing the defense to suffer the consequences of their mistake?

R1 advanced both due to the BB and the WP. Since either one would be sufficient to advance the runner, moving the runner back would not only being a denial of benefit from BOO but also an intervention in favor of the defense. I would allow the advance to stand.

Wish I had something authoritative, though. I looked through J/R's BOO cases (there's about 20), and didn't see anything perfectly apposite.

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Gerry Blue,

If I'm the umpire...

1. Yes. The R2 is returned. His advance was not "during" the improper batter's at bat.

2. No. The defense has not lost its opportunity to appeal the BOOT.

JM

1. I think R2 advanced on a wild pitch that was delivered while the batter was at bat.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DG

1. I think R2 advanced on a wild pitch that was delivered while the batter was at bat.

The pitch was delivered (released) while the batter was still at bat. But the pitch was not wild until after it was ball 4.

[UmpTTS43]

If the batter had an 0-2 count would you allow an advance on a D3K where the ball gets away?

[greymule]

If the batter had an 0-2 count would you allow an advance on a D3K where the ball gets away?

The way I understand it:

Yes, if the runner clearly advanced on the pitch that got away, say, to the screen or into DBT. No, if the ball stayed close to F2 and the runner advanced on the play to 1B to get the BR.

"The umpire must determine . . ."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

If the batter had an 0-2 count would you allow an advance on a D3K where the ball gets away?

Not sure whom you were asking, but no. As you know, the advance did not occur during the improper batter's time at bat, which any allowable advance would have to do.

But one might think that the rule should be built around distinguishing between a runner's advance that's earned by the actions of the improper batter and one that's yielded by the actions of the defense.

One way to understand the rule is that the improper batter has no right to become a runner, and so any advance that occurs while he's a runner should be nullified, even if it's due to a wild pitch or D3K (upon proper appeal, of course).

[rcaverly]

Just from the NFHS side: I don't have a problem returning R1 to TOP in OP1, but I'm not so sure about allowing an appeal following F2's play on R1 in OP2. If everybody else but me "gets it," please enlighten me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rcaverly

Just from the NFHS side: I don't have a problem returning R1 to TOP in OP1, but I'm not so sure about allowing an appeal following F2's play on R1 in OP2. If everybody else but me "gets it," please enlighten me.

The FED definition of "play" is something like "Begins when the pitcher has the ball and ends when the pitcher next has the ball or the ball becomes dead"

[rcaverly]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The FED definition of "play" is something like "Begins when the pitcher has the ball and ends when the pitcher next has the ball or the ball becomes dead"

Yes, they do, and thanks.

Are we to accept that the NFHS is using their definition of "play" within the context of allowing a viable BOO appeal when they write, "...the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first legal or illegal pitch, or, play or attempted play,...the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I only ask to be sure, because I have always understood the term "play" within the context above as an act by the defense to make an out.