Scoring Dispute

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JJ

Sorry, I guess "verify" is too technical/legal/picky for you. For me, "verify" means, "Hey, Team A, what have YOU got? And Team B, what have YOU got?" If they have differences, we sort them out before we start the next half inning. If THEY can't agree, they're idiots, and I "agree" for them.

JJ
PS I would "verify" every half inning that someone scored. I think I can remember that as the game goes along.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification - I get what you're saying now.

[GoodwillRef]

I would make plans with my wife for this exact weekend next year...not working for a yahoo like this.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Alot of this story falls outside the jurisdiction of the umpire, but I need to vent anyway.

This Sunday was working the championship game of a 14U travel tournament. In these tournaments the field umpire (for whatever reason) keeps the lineups and the score, and submits the card after the game to the TD after each coach has signed off on his pitching, score, etc.

In the top of the 7th the visitors score 3 runs to make the score 10-2. I mark 3 onto my card and await the next 3 outs. Home team ends up scoring 7 in the bottom on the 7th, visitors record final out, 10-9.

I begin to meet up with my partner and work our way to the gate when we realize home team is taking the field and away team is lining up to shake hands. I say 10-9, visitors say 10-9, home team says 9-9 (they had the team scoring only 2 in the top half of the 7th). I get both books together and find exactly where the home team book is wrong. They had a runner on 2nd with 2 outs, a base hit, and that runner staying on 2nd. I point this out to the home team manager and his response is, "no, he went to 3rd and stayed there." The visiting team manager notes how the ball was overthrown at the plate, his runner got the plate with his hand, and my partner remembers the exact play. The more me and pard' discuss the more obvious it becomes 10-9.

The home team manager then turns his whole argument into "the home book is official". We call over TD who gets on phone and we wait around for an hour to get a ruling. Both me and partner speak with the head hanchos, and each tell them not only are we certain its 10-9, but the home team coach seems to know deep down its 10-9 and is just being shady.

After an hour wait, the word is we have to go play extras, 9-9. TD explains to visiting coach, me and partner are just tight lipped as could be. Coach is relatively calm, understands its not the TD's fault, but says I'm not putting my boys back out on the field, they won the game and to put them back out there is taking that away from them.

The UIC of the state told me I need to verify the books between every half inning from now on, which seems like overkill and interjecting myself into the dugouts every half inning. Furthermore, it doesn't matter even if I do that, because if there is a discrepancy the precedent has now been set that its the home-team book anyway. So whats the point of me even keeping a card on the field? I obviously have no authority on the score, so why even bother with it. Let a 4 year old take a crayon and color all over the home book for all I care, its the Bible.

Any thoughts?

1. Venting does do you no good. It happened. Get over it.

2 Why would the visiting coach hang around for an hour if he wasn't going put his team back on the field?

3. It doesn't hurt to verify the score from time to time. I certainly do it if I haven't access to a scoreboard and the ten run rule could go into effect.

4. Go find you a place to sit down and relax while the dispute is taking place.

[silverpie]

Over 'cross the pond, their version of bats and balls actually puts it in the rules:

"The scorers shall frequently check to ensure that their records agree. They shall agree with the umpires, at least at every interval, other than a drinks interval, and at the conclusion of the match, the runs scored, the wickets that have fallen and, where appropriate, the number of overs bowled."

[ozzy6900]

If you handle it like a HS game (here in CT), you would be at the dugout at the end of each half inning, "Do you show 2 runs scoring on that inning, coach?" and you make sure that you and the coach agree on the number of runs. Heck, in a half inning where I have 3 up & 3 down, I go to the dugout and say, "Do you have no runs on this inning, coach?". At first, newer coaches think I am breaking their balls (in fact... I am) but when they see that I am delaying writing on my lineup until I verify with them, they sometimes meet me at the gate with the information before I even ask.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

If you handle it like a HS game (here in CT), you would be at the dugout at the end of each half inning, "Do you show 2 runs scoring on that inning, coach?" and you make sure that you and the coach agree on the number of runs. Heck, in a half inning where I have 3 up & 3 down, I go to the dugout and say, "Do you have no runs on this inning, coach?". At first, newer coaches think I am breaking their balls (in fact... I am) but when they see that I am delaying writing on my lineup until I verify with them, they sometimes meet me at the gate with the information before I even ask.

Really? I couldn't even tell you the score 90% of the time. I have worked games where we had a 10-run rule and the only hint I had was the teams lining up.

[tballump]

Work football or volleyball during the fall and basketball during the winter and get ready for High School or whatever hard ball in the Spring again. Don't get injured in the off-season fall ball especially with catcher's that cannot catch.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by silverpie

Over 'cross the pond, their version of bats and balls actually puts it in the rules:

"The scorers shall frequently check to ensure that their records agree. They shall agree with the umpires, at least at every interval, other than a drinks interval, and at the conclusion of the match, the runs scored, the wickets that have fallen and, where appropriate, the number of overs bowled."

Being a cricket follower since living overseas, I think I'd take that trade-off. Because those same laws of cricket also allow for very little dissent against an umpire's ruling. Even better than THAT - they actually enforce those laws (as opposed to our rulebook, which says players and coaches can't - and I'm paraphrasing slightly - act like jackoffs, and how does THAT work out?).

There are plenty of times where players lose their some or all of their match fees for "dissent," and sometimes that just means bad body language.

Between that, and the drinks and tea breaks, sounds pretty freaking awesome.

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? I couldn't even tell you the score 90% of the time. I have worked games where we had a 10-run rule and the only hint I had was the teams lining up.

When it's close and when it's nearing ten, I'll check with the books. If they're different I tell 'em to get together just to avoid this hassle.

[cookie]

I worked 2 consecutive 16U games in a Triple Crown Tournament this past Sunday.

Normally in travel ball, we umpires have nothing to do with keeping the score or the innings pitched by the F1's. But in Triple Crown Tournaments in our area, we umpires are given a lineup card and directed to note the score each half inning and announce it (To me, that means verify it with the VT/HT scorekeepers each 1/2 inning). Also, on the card, we must note the number of innings each F1 pitched whenever there is a pitching change; we must also note the beginning time of the game. At the completion of the game, each coach has to sign the card. From there, it's turned in to the TD. Usually, this bookkeeping job is done by the base umpire.

Sometimes, I'm a little lax on the 1/2 inning routine (usually because there's been no runs scored), but if runs cross the plate during a 1/2 inning, I'll make an effort to verify the number with the scorekeepers to see if they jive.

Now, from what I've read here in TussAgee's post, I'll be especially keen on getting the score agreed upon, particularly if the game is close...

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by cookie

I worked 2 consecutive 16U games in a Triple Crown Tournament this past Sunday.

Normally in travel ball, we umpires have nothing to do with keeping the score or the innings pitched by the F1's. But in Triple Crown Tournaments in our area, we umpires are given a lineup card and directed to note the score each half inning and announce it (To me, that means verify it with the VT/HT scorekeepers each 1/2 inning). Also, on the card, we must note the number of innings each F1 pitched whenever there is a pitching change; we must also note the beginning time of the game. At the completion of the game, each coach has to sign the card. From there, it's turned in to the TD. Usually, this bookkeeping job is done by the base umpire.

Sometimes, I'm a little lax on the 1/2 inning routine (usually because there's been no runs scored), but if runs cross the plate during a 1/2 inning, I'll make an effort to verify the number with the scorekeepers to see if they jive.

Now, from what I've read here in TussAgee's post, I'll be especially keen on getting the score agreed upon, particularly if the game is close...

What else do they want us to do...make out the line-up for both teams? Drag and line the field? Cover the pitching mound with a tarp if it starts to rain? Make pitching changes during the game without talking to the coach? Sell hot dogs and peanuts at the half-inning?

[Tim C]

If I showed up to work a game and the game management informed me that I was also to keep score for the game I would hand the assignment back and go have a cold adult beverage.

It is the JOB of tournament organizers to but on a well thoughtout and covered tourney. They charge the teams to play.

Pretty soon ya'll will be working for free (like Copperstown Park) while the organizer makes the money.

Sad state of affairs.

T