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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 02:15pm
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Please help settle a dispute

Hi, everyone:

An umpiring colleague and I are having a dispute about how a situation was handled by me in a tournament game here in Canada several years ago. It all depends upon one's philosophy of umpiring, I suppose. I'd appreciate your views. Here's what happened:

It was a girls' tournament featuring teams from small towns. The quality of play was not very good. Many of the teams played in leagues that allowed very liberal substitution and pitching rules. The tournament organizer decided the simplest thing to do was go by the book regarding substitution and pitching rules. The coaches for all the teams and the umpires were specifically told that book rules would be used.

My first game was squirt girls (age 12). In the top of the first inning, a batter hit a line drive off the third baseman's ankle. The third baseman immediately fell down like she had been shot. The coach, a female, came out and asked if she could put one of her substitutes in for her injured third baseman. I said yes.

Before the bottom of the first inning, the coach asked if she could re-enter her third baseman so she could bat in the spot she had vacated. I said yes. At the end of the inning she wanted to put the substitute for the third baseman back into the game in another spot. I said, "No. Only your starters may re-enter the game." I informed the coach her substitute's game was now over. The coach got angry and said she wouldn't have made the substitution and re-entry had she known that. I reminded her that the tourney was using book rules for such things. I further said I had to assume she knew what she was doing when she made her substitutions. The coach walked away angry.

An inning later her pitcher was getting shellacked. The coach came out to talk to her. When the coach left the pitching circle, I held up a finger and said, "First conference." She looked at me but made no comment. The next batter was promptly hit by the first pitch. The defensive coach again came out to talk to her pitcher. I could tell she had no idea that this second conference would mean her pitcher was done for the game. When she walked away from the circle without making a pitching change, I told her her pitcher was done. She became very angry again and blamed me for not telling her in advance what would happen if she came out twice in an inning. I reiterated that we were playing by book rules and it was her obligation to understand the ramifications of any moves she might make. "I'm not here to coach your team. I'm here to enforce the rules," I told her.

Here's the dispute I'm having: Some umpiring colleagues of mine consider what I did to be "over-officiating." I don't see it that way at all. What was I supposed to do? Not enforce the proper substitution rule? Not enforce the charged conference rule? I feel the coach has an obligation to know the rules--and these are fairly basic ones. If I start giving advice, it is unfair to the other team.

Your comments, please.

Last edited by John Robertson; Sat May 22, 2010 at 09:45am.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 02:25pm
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I think the onus should fall on the coach to either know the proper ruling or to ask in advance. OOO? I don't think so. The expectations had been set prior to the games' start, the coaches agreed to these rules, and while it is a shame that some girls' opportunities to continue playing in the game were cut short, that's the coach's fault, not yours.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 02:53pm
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Not OOO at all. It is what you were specifically instructed to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robertson View Post
...It was a girls' tournament featuring teams from small towns. The quality of play was not very good. Many of the teams played in leagues that allowed very liberal substitution and pitching rules. ....
Given this, you MAY have been able to head some of this off with a brief reminder at the plate meeting that book rules on subs, re-entry, including offensive and defensive conferences, would be in force in this tournament. We deal with this all the time around here (by "this" I mean tournaments that enforce the book on subs, etc, with most/all of the teams playing in leagues that use bat-the-roster / free sub on defense rules), and the reminder helps tremendously.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 03:17pm
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I disagree... with your cohorts. The coaches were told the rules. It's not our job to hold a rules clinic, nor to try to figure out which coaches know what. Telling a coach that knows the rules something like, "you know, if you visit the mound again, your pitcher comes out" is likely sound condescending and lead to a well-deserved rebuke from the coach and possibly your UIC.

We are not there to coach or advise the coaches. Period. (Had a partner loudly tell the pitcher after an outside pitch, "Bring it in a bit!" Coach had a conniption fit. The pitch was SUPPOSED to be outside - my partner coaching the pitcher was NOT received well and he took a lot of grief over it from our UIC.)

I'm assuming the ruleset was mentioned at the plate conference. I usually end with "Anyone have any questions?" Kind of covers it all. Not my fault if someone doesn't know something.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 03:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Not OOO at all. It is what you were specifically instructed to do.

Given this, you MAY have been able to head some of this off with a brief reminder at the plate meeting that book rules on subs, re-entry, including offensive and defensive conferences, would be in force in this tournament. We deal with this all the time around here (by "this" I mean tournaments that enforce the book on subs, etc, with most/all of the teams playing in leagues that use bat-the-roster / free sub on defense rules), and the reminder helps tremendously.

Seems that coach would have needed more than a BRIEF reminder about book rules. Doesn't seem she knew them at all.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 03:59pm
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I'd be curious about the arguments from those who say it is OOO. If I go to a tournament and they tell me to enforce the substitution rules, that's what I do. I can imagine being called OOO for the way they are enforced if something came up, but just for enforcing them?
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:21pm.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 04:12pm
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I agree young.

Take it a step further... and remember this is a tourney. These coaches don't know each other - and all want to win. There's no "Aw shucks we're just here to play, let it go" going on."

Let's say the OTHER coach knows the rules. You let the uninformed coach reenter her sub, or worse, let the pitcher pitch beyond the 2nd conference. NOW, you have an Ess-Storm, probably followed by dumb coach angry with smart coach, perhaps even escalating from there.

There are times when choosing to not see something minor is more in the spirit of the game (like, R1 on 3rd with left foot on the bag lifts the left foot briefly to remove some mud ... I didn't see that)... but sub rules, pitching rules, etc are pretty basic to this game, and enforcing them when those rules are to be used for the tourney is not OOO.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf24 View Post
Seems that coach would have needed more than a BRIEF reminder about book rules. Doesn't seem she knew them at all.
I agree. But hey, isn't that kind of the norm?

And btw... Welcome to the forum! Glad you finally found the place.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 05:32pm
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You got to call per the rules of the contest. That is not OOO, it is smart, safe, and responcible. If the coach don't know the rules why would they agree to play by them? Not OOO but DMC
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 06:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robertson View Post
The tournament organizer decided the simplest thing to do was go by the book regarding substitution and pitching rules. The coaches for all the teams and the umpires were specifically told that book rules would be used.
Man, I don't have any idea if you were doing the right thing or not, because i've never seen the Canadian book before!

Subs can't re-enter? Pitchers have to come out on the second visit of the inning?

Is this book written in, like, metric or something?
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 08:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf24 View Post
Seems that coach would have needed more than a BRIEF reminder about book rules. Doesn't seem she knew them at all.
Which is why in had the word "MAY" in all caps.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 08:50pm
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Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
Man, I don't have any idea if you were doing the right thing or not, because i've never seen the Canadian book before!

Subs can't re-enter? Pitchers have to come out on the second visit of the inning?

Is this book written in, like, metric or something?
That's what I was thinking.
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 09:29pm
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Sounds like NCAA rules.

Paul
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 10:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
Man, I don't have any idea if you were doing the right thing or not, because i've never seen the Canadian book before!

Subs can't re-enter? Pitchers have to come out on the second visit of the inning?

Is this book written in, like, metric or something?
It wasn't that long agoe these were the rules for all stick and ball games
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Old Fri May 21, 2010, 11:37pm
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Thanks for all the comments so far--and their unanimity.

Softball Canada's rules are pretty much the same rules used in international competition--and yes, some of the dimensions of the diamond and equipment are listed in metric!

I haven't visited this website in nearly two years. Can someone please tell me what the abbreviation OOO means? (I'm guessing two of the Os stand for "over-officiating.")

Last edited by John Robertson; Fri May 21, 2010 at 11:41pm.
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