Help settle a dispute.....

TEC · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 01:50am

I'm hopeing that I can get some help in settleing a dispute I had with another b-ball player this weekend as to what the NBA rules state about what most call a "self pass".

I brought the ball down court. Upon reaching the top of the key I made an errant pass to a teammate that end up bouncing off the backboard. I caught the ball as it came off the backboard without anyone else on either team touching the ball first. The other team accused me of making a "self pass".

I argued that both Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady have performed this move in NBA games and a violaion was not called.

Who is correct?

Thanks in advance.

mplagrow · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 08:13am

NFHS rules, which I presume you play under, do not address a 'self-pass' off the backboard. As a ref, I see an ugly shot and a rebound, that's it. Play on.

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 08:19am

The play is legal under high school, college, and pro rules.

Hawks Coach · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 11:02am

In reality, playgorund has no rulebook. Whichever of the uninformed can convince the rest of the players (or a majority of the players) that his interpretation makes sense, or whoever is most obstinant and refuses to let go of the ball until his rule is accepted - that becomes the rule.

SamIAm · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 07:01pm

NFHS - Does the ball striking the backboard cause a pass to be treated as a shot?

Dan_ref · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 07:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
NFHS - Does the ball striking the backboard cause a pass to be treated as a shot?

Only if it strikes your own backboard. Otherwise it's the same as striking the floor.

SMEngmann · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 02:33am

Technically, in NFHS this play could be ruled an illegal dribble if a shot did not take place because the backboard is considered part of the court. Similarly, if you attempt to pass the ball to a teammate after picking up a dribble and then running to get it after it hits the floor and before it touches anyone else, or if you think the official's your teammate and pass the ball off of the official and then retrieve it (I've seen this happen by the way), it's an illegal dribble. However, it's gotta be blatently advantageous and obvious if it hits the backboard or I rule it a shot.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 07:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Technically, in NFHS this play could be ruled an illegal dribble if a shot did not take place because the backboard is considered part of the court.

No, it could not.

Jimgolf · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 08:24am

The Schoolyard Rulebook clearly states that whoever yells the loudest is correct. Unless, of course, the player who owns the ball threatens to take it home with him.

TEC · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 09:00am

Thanks for the replies so far.

My contention with him was that under Section XIV - Travelling of the NBA rule book, it states:

j. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, rim or another player.

As the ball, wheter it was a pass or shot, hit the backboard thus allowing anyone including the passer/shooter to rebound the ball.

Quote:

The Schoolyard Rulebook clearly states that whoever yells the loudest is correct. Unless, of course, the player who owns the ball threatens to take it home with him.

HA!HA! I'd hope that a bunch of 20-30 somethings aren't that juvenille, even though a passer by might disagree.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 09:09am

Here's the applicable case:

*4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

Interestingly, this case was changed this season without any fanfare. In previous years, there was no reference to "in an attempt to score". The ruling had nothing to do with team control. Last year's case (exact same citation) states that: "In (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble. (9-5)" That whole rationale about not consituting part of a dribble was deleted this year; and the language about "on a try" was added.

Does this change the way we adjudicate this play? Or does it mean that we automatically assume that when a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard, it was a try?

Nevadaref · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 01, 2004, 02:00am

Chuck,
Thanks for pointing out that change. I actually find the newest version the most problematic. It makes one immediately ask, "What if the player throws the ball against his/her own backboard while clearly NOT attempting to score?"
Do we now have to rule that team control certainly continues and make a judgment on player control, which would lead to calling this action a dribble.

tomegun · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 01, 2004, 06:04am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Chuck,
Thanks for pointing out that change. I actually find the newest version the most problematic. It makes one immediately ask, "What if the player throws the ball against his/her own backboard while clearly NOT attempting to score?"
Do we now have to rule that team control certainly continues and make a judgment on player control, which would lead to calling this action a dribble.

We had a debate about this. A player would try this to dunk the ball after throwing it off of the backboard. My questions:

Is it correct to say that how a player throws the ball of the backboard must be taken into account? Meaning that, while running, the ball can be grasped with two hands and tossed against the backboard or sort of tapped/pushed to the backboard with one hand. Depending on the manner in which they do this it could be considered part of the dribble.

How many people would put a whistle on this?

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 01, 2004, 08:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun

We had a debate about this. A player would try this to dunk the ball after throwing it off of the backboard. My questions:

Is it correct to say that how a player throws the ball of the backboard must be taken into account? Meaning that, while running, the ball can be grasped with two hands and tossed against the backboard or sort of tapped/pushed to the backboard with one hand. Depending on the manner in which they do this it could be considered part of the dribble.

How many people would put a whistle on this?

I can't answer the speicific question, but those that would call this a violation are incorrect. There's a specific AR (NCAA rules), and iirc, a FED case that call this legal.

ChuckElias · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 01, 2004, 08:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Chuck,
Thanks for pointing out that change. I actually find the newest version the most problematic. It makes one immediately ask, "What if the player throws the ball against his/her own backboard while clearly NOT attempting to score?"

Nevada, that's exactly why I asked if the new wording of the case changes the way we adjudicate the play. Previously, there was no judgement. Throwing the ball off your own backboard was the same as bouncing it on the floor, except that it was explicitly stated that it was not considered a dribble. Now, the ruling only applies during a try. So if it's not a try, is it a double dribble (same as throwing off the opponent's backboard)?