Was this an appeal play?

[Welpe]

Thanks, John.

[jkumpire]

Since I assume your name is John, thanks. You are correct about what I know on the play, and I am glad that I have been teaching people the right way to make this call.

Let me bring something to your attention, for your comment: Earlier in the thread you said that MLB and MiLB do not care or use the terms "relaxed or unrelaxed action." However, when the concept was first pushed, it was my impression that it was professional baseball who had it as an interpretation, not just J/R.

If you, or some of the other long term vets can recall differently where the concept first came from, and got put into popular usage, I would appreciate it.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Since I assume your name is John, thanks. You are correct about what I know on the play, and I am glad that I have been teaching people the right way to make this call.

Let me bring something to your attention, for your comment: Earlier in the thread you said that MLB and MiLB do not care or use the terms "relaxed or unrelaxed action." However, when the concept was first pushed, it was my impression that it was professional baseball who had it as an interpretation, not just J/R.

If you, or some of the other long term vets can recall differently where the concept first came from, and got put into popular usage, I would appreciate it.

Not John, thats JM, however:

In all of my teachings, the terms relaxed/unrelaxed have never been used. Runners are either trying to touch a base or they aren't. Sematics, probably. When it comes to appeals on missed bases, excluding home plate, you first have to determine if it is a force play or a tag play. Then you can determine the correct way for appealing the infraction. J/R uses the rule for missed home plate and applies that standard for all other bases. Not entirely true since the appeal of a missed base in which runner was forced or on BR missing first is treated differently as stated prior. First base is probably the only base you are going to have to treat that way since a runner who is forced and overruns 2nd or 3rd and misses the base will be able to correct his mistake immediately or continue to advance. These appeals are usually after continuing action has stopped. First is different in the fact that the BR is allowed to overrun 1st without penalty in and of itself.

There, now I really confused the issue.

[Sven K]

Not confused at all here, great explanation.

In the replay did you find that as F3 dives back to the back he was attempting to appeal or was he just trying to beat the runner to the bag? I'm going to guess that many if not most MLB players don't really know this rule. I find it a little odd that the same action by the defender (touching the bag with his glove) my or may not be an out depending on whether the ump thinks he is making an on-the-fly appeal. Quite a heads-up play by F3 if he is thinking about an appeal during live action.

If there was deemed to be no appeal during the action can there be a dead ball appeal once the runner is declared safe?

[UmpJM]

Sven K,

There are no dead ball appeals of baserunning infractions under OBR rules.

Further, if the initial appeal is denied during the continuous action of the play - whether because the umpire judges the appeal not properly constituted or simply that the runner "beat" the appeal - there is no further appeal to be made because the runner will have corrected his baserunning infraction and there is nothing left to appeal.

JM

[jkumpire]

With respect, that is how I was taught the rule and it was explained at pro school in 1985. How can reality be confusing?

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Not John, thats JM, however:

In all of my teachings, the terms relaxed/unrelaxed have never been used. Runners are either trying to touch a base or they aren't. Sematics, probably. When it comes to appeals on missed bases, excluding home plate, you first have to determine if it is a force play or a tag play. Then you can determine the correct way for appealing the infraction. J/R uses the rule for missed home plate and applies that standard for all other bases. Not entirely true since the appeal of a missed base in which runner was forced or on BR missing first is treated differently as stated prior. First base is probably the only base you are going to have to treat that way since a runner who is forced and overruns 2nd or 3rd and misses the base will be able to correct his mistake immediately or continue to advance. These appeals are usually after continuing action has stopped. First is different in the fact that the BR is allowed to overrun 1st without penalty in and of itself.

There, now I really confused the issue.

[StLouBlue]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | OAK@TEX: Davis makes a nice play in the fourth - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Was this an appeal play?

Thanks.

I don't know the technically correct answer, but it just "seems" like the BR should be out here. Between going so far out to avoid the tag and missing the base by a mile, he's out. The BR didn't even think to argue it, and I doubt anyone else did. Just we umpires who want to know every jot and tittle of the rules.

Umpires are allowed to rule on situations not covered by the rules. I don't think the practice of considering a runner to have "acquired" 1st base by running past it was meant to cover a situation where he misses it by 3 feet while avoiding a tag. The spirit of the rules was upheld here, and I like the call, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Sven K

In the replay did you find that as F3 dives back to the back he was attempting to appeal or was he just trying to beat the runner to the bag? I'm going to guess that many if not most MLB players don't really know this rule. I find it a little odd that the same action by the defender (touching the bag with his glove) my or may not be an out depending on whether the ump thinks he is making an on-the-fly appeal. Quite a heads-up play by F3 if he is thinking about an appeal during live action.

To me, it's an obvious and unmistakable appeal. Since the B/R is well past the bag, there is no reason for F3 to dive and tag the base unless he believed the B/R missed it. I also think it is highly likely (approaching a certainty) that F3 does not know the rule. I think CB got it right.