F8 carries ball over fence

[greymule]

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

There is DBT (dugout, marked areas on the playing field) and leaving the field of play (over a fence, into spectator areas). Once a ball or player in possession of the ball leaves the field of play, the ball is immediately dead and appropriate awards are given. A fielder cannot make a legal catch then hop into the spectator area and throw from there.

[UmpTTS43]

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

[greymule]

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

I did not quote MLBUM on that, hence no "'s around that statement. That is the interpretation I have been taught.

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

Don't see that quote in the MLBUM.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

Again DBT and leaving the field of play are two different situations. You can have DBT within the field of play. Once you leave the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

No self-respecting umpire would call themselves a referee anyway.

I'm wondering if he USED to be right though. I vaguely remember from my youth seeing Enos Cabell do exactly this. I surely don't have the rulebook (or MLBUM!) from 1975ish.

[greymule]

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

If F2 wrongly thinks there are 3 outs and carries the ball into the dugout, I guess he intentionally carried it there, even though the rule was designed to prevent an outfielder from falling into the stands intentionally to keep a fast runner on 2B from scoring on a fly ball. Maybe "intentionally and deviously" would be better wording.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between entering DBT and leaving the field of play. It sounds to me like the same thing.

"Hal the Referee" answered rules questions in all sports, but most of the questions were about baseball. His column was in the Sporting News every week. It probably should have been called, "Hal the Sports Official."

mbcrowder, I wasn't "calling you out." Your statement was credible, and I wanted to know where to find it. Incidentally, "treat as" sounds like BRD language. I'm going to look there.

But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

I think that by now Hal has gone to that great ballpark in the sky.

[greymule]

From Evans: Professional Interpretation: [after a legal catch] . . .

The player may throw from a dead ball territory and complete a play provided he has not fallen in the dead ball territory (e.g., dugout, stands, photographers' pit).

From the BRD:

If a fielder after making a catch enters DBT, the ball remains alive unless the fielder falls down.

But:

If a fielder, in making a catch, enters a spectator area due to his momentum, the ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base, regardless of whether the fielder has fallen or remains standing.

(What if the fielder enters "stands" that are empty of "spectators"?)

Evans cites 1950 as the time the rule was established, but he does not mention the exception for the "spectator area" (mentioned in J/R and BRD), which I did remember as having come much later. But I can't find anything in any of the books about an uncaught batted ball. Every example of unintentional entering of DBT deals with "after a catch."

However, the BRD does mention intentional carrying into DBT of merely a "batted ball" as causing a two-base award (from time of entering DBT). If unintentional carrying was the same two-base award, would that not be included in that section?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

I agree. The OP counts as a kind of "overthrow," even though it's not among the examples given in J/R, Chapter 8. The award is 2 bases from the time the ball went out of play. Keep it simple.

Originally Posted by greymule

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS. The defense caused a ball that was no longer a batted ball to leave live ball territory. That's the definition of an overthrow, and so the rules pertaining to overthrows (2 bases from TOT) apply.

We're used to "catch and carry," which is a kind of exception to the overthrow rule. The rationale for the exception is that, since the defense caught the batted ball, the runners would have to retouch before advancing. That's why they get just one base for catch and carry.

In the OP, we did NOT have a catch, so the exception would not apply.

[greymule]

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by greymule

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

They are not 6 categories of overthrow, or they would be labeled as such.

It can't possibly be a "kind of catch and carry" because it's not a catch. That's crucial, since the basis for the exception to the overthrow award is the fact that the runners must retouch after a catch.

[greymule]

They are not 6 categories of overthrow, or they would be labeled as such.

Well, they're 6 types of overthrow, but they're not labeled as examples, either. They certainly could be examples, but it's not fully clear. If I were editing the J/R, it would say, "Some examples of overthrows follow."

Note that with altered bats, the J/R introduces its list with "Examples of altered bats include bats that are:" . . .

But for foul balls, it reads:

"It is a foul ball if a batted ball:" . . .

and then lists 7 categories that cover every kind of foul ball. (The J/R even includes "is touched by the batter in his batter's box, which is not in the official book definition). It doesn't specifically say that all foul balls fall into one of the 7 categories, but they do. These are not just examples of foul balls.

I don't expect rule books to be written like law books, and I can accept that the play in the OP is considered an "overthrow." I'm just saying that the books don't cover it unequivocally.

[greymule]

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

Can you cite where the MLBUM covers that? I can't find it in my 2000 edition.