F8 carries ball over fence

[kheisner]

Situation; Palomino game (OBR). B4 hits ball to the left of F8. Ball bounces, F8 gloves the ball on 1st bounce, proceeds to run into the fence and flips over the fence with ball in glove. B4 was at 1B when F8 went over the fence. Where do you place B4? We put him on 3rd. I've consulted other umps. Some say 3rd ...others say 2nd.

Are Fed & OBR rules the same in this situation?

[rbmartin]

I'm probably wrong here but my gut tells me that whether or not the fielder left the field of play isn't relevant. The ball leaving the field is revelant.
I would probably look at:


7.04c Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field; A fielder or catcher may reach or step into, or go into the dugout with one or both feet to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. Ball is in play. If the fielder or catcher, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout after making a legal catch.


7.05g Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence... The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

I realize neither of those address your specific situation (because the ball was neither caught nor thrown), but I'd start there.

[bob jenkins]

Doesn't one of the interps (MLBUM?) indicate that a thrown / bounding ball is treated the same as a caught ball in this respect?

Sorry, I'm away from all my reference material right now.

[kheisner]

OK guys, we had a couple of "rookie" umps, (me & partner...dangerous situation...LOL). We discussed it and and came up with 2-bases from TOT (there doesn't need to be a throw to enforce this, I've been told) Not being sure if we made the right call, I've asked my mentor and other experienced umpires.

My only consultation in this is that they are split 50/50 on if B4 is placed at 2nd or 3rd.

Nobody else on the field had a clue, so they had to buy whatever our 2-man crew of "rookie" umps were selling!! Brief explanation, and the game played on.

[UmpTTS43]

Once the ball is secured in the glove, it is no longer a batted ball and the rules governing base awards associated with batted balls are irrelevant.

7.04(c), one base after fielder makes a legal catch on a fly ball, and falls into DBT, is also irrelevant due to the fact that F8 did not make a legal catch on a fly ball.

This situation is treated the same as a thrown ball going out of play. Same when a fielder goes into the stands or dugout after gaining possession on a thrown ball. ie F2 backing up first base. Award is two bases time of entry into DBT.

Runner should be awarded third if he had attained first at the time of the fileder leaving the field of play.

[greymule]

Did the fielder fall down in DBT? If he remained standing and didn't drop the ball, the ball should remain in play in OBR, shouldn't it? (Or was that changed recently? Added: Yes, in a spectator seating area, he doesn't have to fall. Ball is dead, one base for the runners.) If he had "complete possession," left the field, remained on his feet, and then dropped the ball while in DBT, the MLBUM says two bases from the time the ball was dropped (not the time the ball left the field).

The MLBUM does not seem to cover what happens if the fielder (not after a catch) had complete possession when he left the field and fell into DBT.

I'll see whether the J/R covers the OP specifically.

[UmpTTS43]

Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not. On MLB fields, the dugout is usually the only DBT that is within the field of play. That is what the specific rules of falling while in DBT address. On non MLB fields, you may have the white line marking DBT. Home ground rules usually cover what is to happen in different situations concerning this area. Once out of the field of play, all bets are off and the appropriate rules/awards govern.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Once the ball is secured in the glove, it is no longer a batted ball and the rules governing base awards associated with batted balls are irrelevant.

Rules basis? A batted ball is a batted ball until it becomes something else. This is not yet a thrown ball.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

7.04(c), one base after fielder makes a legal catch on a fly ball, and falls into DBT, is also irrelevant due to the fact that F8 did not make a legal catch on a fly ball.

Except that the MLBUM has said the exact opposite since this sitch is not specifically covered in the OBR book.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

This situation is treated the same as a thrown ball going out of play. Same when a fielder goes into the stands or dugout after gaining possession on a thrown ball. ie F2 backing up first base. Award is two bases time of entry into DBT.

No. This is not a thrown ball.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Runner should be awarded third if he had attained first at the time of the fileder leaving the field of play.

Award second.

Although it doesn't matter as far as the result of THIS sitch goes, the rule used depends on whether the fielder gained possession while still on the field. And other runners or a different position of BR WOULD make this matter.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

If he did NOT, consider the similar situation of a ball in flight caught by a jumping outfielder who falls completely out of play, never landing in the field of play - 4 base award. In our case, ground rule double.

The difference would matter if, for example, if BR had not reached first at the time the fielder got the ball... 1st base in the first case, 2nd base in the 2nd. It could matter also if R1 was stealing and had reached 3rd at the time the fielder got the ball - home in the first case, 3rd in the 2nd case.

[jicecone]

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Rules basis? A batted ball is a batted ball until it becomes something else. This is not yet a thrown ball.

Except that the MLBUM has said the exact opposite since this sitch is not specifically covered in the OBR book.

No. This is not a thrown ball.

Award second.

Although it doesn't matter as far as the result of THIS sitch goes, the rule used depends on whether the fielder gained possession while still on the field. And other runners or a different position of BR WOULD make this matter.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

If he did NOT, consider the similar situation of a ball in flight caught by a jumping outfielder who falls completely out of play, never landing in the field of play - 4 base award. In our case, ground rule double.

The difference would matter if, for example, if BR had not reached first at the time the fielder got the ball... 1st base in the first case, 2nd base in the 2nd. It could matter also if R1 was stealing and had reached 3rd at the time the fielder got the ball - home in the first case, 3rd in the 2nd case.

What are referencing in the MLBUM? can't find any basis to support your position at this time.

To quote you "Rules basis?" You say the MLBUM says so but can't give relevant references. Let me know when you have sufficient proof to claim my interp is wrong.

[greymule]

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

There is DBT (dugout, marked areas on the playing field) and leaving the field of play (over a fence, into spectator areas). Once a ball or player in possession of the ball leaves the field of play, the ball is immediately dead and appropriate awards are given. A fielder cannot make a legal catch then hop into the spectator area and throw from there.

[greymule]

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

Can you cite where the MLBUM covers that? I can't find it in my 2000 edition.

[UmpTTS43]

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.