Fielder carries ball out of play

[bossman72]

OBR

Runners on, Fair ball down right field line. Ball is rolling near the out of play line. F9 runs over, picks up the ball, and his momentum takes him out of play.

Would this be a dead ball and an award of 2 bases, or would we treat this like a catch and carry on a fly ball and keep the ball live?

Please provide any references with your answer. I was asked this question (apparently it happened) and i wasn't sure if the catch and carry rule applied to non-fly balls. so, i'd like to point this person to a rule or interpretation to say whether i'm right or wrong.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

bossman,

I'm currently out of town on business, so I don't have my references handy, but the ball is dead and the award is two bases to any remaining viable runner(s).

The "special" award of only one base only applies to a legal catch of an "in flight" batted ball - iirc, the idea was to encourage aggressive defensive play.

In the sitch you pose, it's a "book rule" double.

JM

[Rcichon]

Dead ball award bases.
I'll get my J-R book and edit this post tomorrow.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bossman72

OBR

Runners on, Fair ball down right field line. Ball is rolling near the out of play line. F9 runs over, picks up the ball, and his momentum takes him out of play.

Would this be a dead ball and an award of 2 bases, or would we treat this like a catch and carry on a fly ball and keep the ball live?

"If a fielder initially gains possession of an airborne batted ball on LBT, but enters DBT due to his momentum, the ball remains live if the fielder neither falls nor drops the ball onto DBT while voluntarily releasing it. Thus the catch can be completed on DBT. This is often called the "catch and carry." If a fielder is bobbling the ball as he enters DBT, the ball is dead and a catch is no longer possible."

"The "catch and carry" has, in practice often been extended to include bounding batted balls, thrown balls and pitched balls that are possessed on LBT and carried into DBT due to the fielder's momentum. If such balls are bobbled as the fielder enters DBT, they are considered as deflected out of play."

"If a fielder, in making a catch, enters a spectator seating area due to his momentum, the ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base, regardless of whether the fielder has fallen or remains standing."

All quotes are from J/R. The last quote is from J/R but quoted from MLB 5.5, example 5.

[greymule]

This is often called the "catch and carry."

Thank you, DG, for reinforcing this concept here. I've have tried futilely for years to convince my colleagues of this, but they all insist on using "catch and carry" to mean, "If the fielder catches the ball on live ball territory and then carries it into DBT, the ball is dead and the runners are awarded 1 base." They even tell coaches this during the pre-game.

While that rule may apply to the particular game we're officiating, it isn't "catch and carry." Drives me crazy.

When was that part about a "seating area" added? I wonder if it applies to an aisle between the seats.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by greymule

This is often called the "catch and carry."

Thank you, DG, for reinforcing this concept here. I've have tried futilely for years to convince my colleagues of this, but they all insist on using "catch and carry" to mean, "If the fielder catches the ball on live ball territory and then carries it into DBT, the ball is dead and the runners are awarded 1 base."

"Catch and carry" assumes that a legal catch has been made and the "carry" was inadvertent as in F can't stop momentum.

While that rule may apply to the particular game we're officiating, it isn't "catch and carry." Drives me crazy.

When was that part about a "seating area" added? I wonder if it applies to an aisle between the seats.

It' not about where you land, but about ability to not land there.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DG

"The "catch and carry" has, in practice often been extended to include bounding batted balls, thrown balls and pitched balls that are possessed on LBT and carried into DBT due to the fielder's momentum. If such balls are bobbled as the fielder enters DBT, they are considered as deflected out of play."

Note that, as in another recent thread, this would be a 2-base award (instead of 1 base) if we rule that the ball would not have gone out of play without the "deflection."

I'm piecing together my bootleg J/R. Keep it coming, guys.

[greymule]

It's not about where you land, but about ability to not land there.

I understand that the fielder's momentum is involved, though after a catch fielders don't often enter DBT purely out of choice. But whether or not the fielder falls or remains standing is key, except apparently where there's a "seating area." This rule makes sense, because if a fielder sprints toward the fence, makes the catch, and then hurdles the fence to place himself in the seats, it's likely he will become tangled with spectators and seats. This could make it difficult to determine whether he has "fallen" or not. I was just wondering about an aisle between the seats (or maybe a walkway in front of the seats), where it would probably be easy to tell whether or not he had fallen.

When I was playing (many years ago), I asked an umpire I knew (he was soon in MLB) whether a fielder could make catch, hurdle a fence, and throw from "Row F." He said, "Yes, as long as he doesn't fall." So apparently at some point since then, MLB appended the part about the seating area.

[DG]

Originally Posted by greymule

[B]I wonder if it applies to an aisle between the seats.

I think it would be logical to assume that an aisle between two seating areas is part of the seating area.

[DG]

This question was OBR. Don't confuse OBR with FED.

In FED if you carry a caught fly ball into DBT unintentionally it is dead, award 1 base to runners. If you do it intentionally it is 2 base award. A 2001 interp also says if you carry a caught ground ball into DBT it is 2 base award whether intentional or not (go figure).

This may be where some of the confusion is coming in to this subject. It is covered in BRD.

[fitump56]

"Catch and carry" assumes that a legal catch has been made and the "carry" was inadvertent as in F can't stop momentum.


Quote:

While that rule may apply to the particular game we're officiating, it isn't "catch and carry." Drives me crazy.

When was that part about a "seating area" added? I wonder if it applies to an aisle between the seats.

It' not about where you land, but about ability to not land there.

Originally Posted by greymule

I understand that the fielder's momentum is involved, though after a catch fielders don't often enter DBT purely out of choice. But whether or not the fielder falls or remains standing is key, except apparently where there's a "seating area." This rule makes sense, because if a fielder sprints toward the fence, makes the catch, and then hurdles the fence to place himself in the seats, it's likely he will become tangled with spectators and seats. This could make it difficult to determine whether he has "fallen" or not. I was just wondering about an aisle between the seats (or maybe a walkway in front of the seats), where it would probably be easy to tell whether or not he had fallen.

Catch and carry momentum has nothing to do with standing, falling or anything else other than:

It' not about where you land, but about ability to not land there. The ablity to prevent your progress in time and distance.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by DG

I think it would be logical to assume that an aisle between two seating areas is part of the seating area.

but sitting there is probably a fire hazard...