F8 carries ball over fence

[jicecone]

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

Yes catch and carry is correct if Fed rule, NCAA and OBR is applicable if fielder falls down otherwise, ball is alive.

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

[greymule]

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

1 base. (and yes, same reasoning as the OP) Why 2?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

1 base. (and yes, same reasoning as the OP) Why 2?

Heck, if he didn't fall, why give any at all.

I have tried to spell out the reasoning for the two base awards given different examples. I will bow out and let others banter about. Obviously I am not the one to give you the correct ruling concerning this situation. I wait to see what the real ruling is.

If I am wrong, I will gladly acknowledge it. But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

How about it?

Was it intentional? No ? Two bases from the TOP.

[MD Longhorn]

This is an odd hair we're splitting here, don't you think? I understand why the distinction of "falls" vs "stays on his feet" is relevant when entering ON FIELD dbt - such as a dugout. I really don't think (but obviously can't prove since this is not stated either way) the rules writers intended there to be a difference between falling into the stands or over the HR fence and jumping into the stands or over the HR fence, and landing on your feet.

If you contend there's a difference there - I can't argue with you... the rules don't say. But it seems to leave a large grey un-ruled-upon area if that's truly the case. One would think that if they wanted one to be treated differently than the other, they would have not only defined how to treat one - they would have defined both.

Our Catch and Carry example of a caught ball is the only one that's really relevant here. I recognize that two of you are calling me out regarding the exact wording from MLBUM. I know I've read this. However, I'm at work still, books are in the car and at home. I will get back to you on the wording that leads me to say to treat bounce/field/carry the same as catch/carry, and not a throw.

[greymule]

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

There is DBT (dugout, marked areas on the playing field) and leaving the field of play (over a fence, into spectator areas). Once a ball or player in possession of the ball leaves the field of play, the ball is immediately dead and appropriate awards are given. A fielder cannot make a legal catch then hop into the spectator area and throw from there.

[UmpTTS43]

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

[greymule]

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

I did not quote MLBUM on that, hence no "'s around that statement. That is the interpretation I have been taught.

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

Don't see that quote in the MLBUM.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

Again DBT and leaving the field of play are two different situations. You can have DBT within the field of play. Once you leave the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

No self-respecting umpire would call themselves a referee anyway.

I'm wondering if he USED to be right though. I vaguely remember from my youth seeing Enos Cabell do exactly this. I surely don't have the rulebook (or MLBUM!) from 1975ish.