Joyce misses one

[Texas Aggie]

In football, we talk about big calls in certain situations -- like late in a close game, or ejections anytime: we want what we call to show up on film. That is a want, not a require -- so we'll get what we have to get. Last fall in a very close game, I flagged a clip on what ended up being a run for a TD; my call, which was clearly correct and did show up on film (I'm sure; didn't see it, but didn't hear about it later) probably affected the winner.

To me, in baseball, in the 9th inning of a perfect game, that SAFE call has GOT to be clear. While I don't want a team to be cheated, the runner is going to be out unless he's clearly safe -- dropped ball, missed bag, etc. Do you baseball guys agree or disagree with this?

The thing is, most very close plays at first I see in college and MLB almost always go out. Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?

[cviverito]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?

Yeah. He said he thought the runner beat it.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by robbie

Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.

What does it say about you and your son's judgement who both missed the PITCHER catching the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by robbie

Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.

Gee, even Jim Joyce doesn't agree with you.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...fect-game.html



But thanks for playing.....

[KMBReferee]

I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

[Nevadaref]

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

In baseball we do not reverse a judgement call our partner made. We only offer our opinion to our partner if specifically asked. The umpire who made the original call can then choose to change the call based on the new information he has.

I don't like to say "never," but I simply can't imagine a professional crew getting together on a play like this. There are very rare times when the 1BU might ask the PU for help on a play at 1B but this play was not one of them. This is going to be the 1BU's call all the way and he is not going to change it.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

Never gonna happen....

It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket.

You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you.

You just live or die with the call.

It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

Then he should find a new line of work other than professional sports.
Mistakes haunt people all the time. Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith, Leon Lett.
Along with that fat paycheck comes some additional scrutiny should you be unfortunate or incompetent enough to make a highly visible mistake in a highly publicized situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.

Lee:

Mark, Jr., and I think you for your astute observation. As some people on this Forum know, I am the father of two first basemen (Andy, still in H.S., and MTD, Jr., who now umpires H.S. baseball).

MTD, Jr., and I still are of the opinion that F1 did not have control of the throw until after he pulled his foot off of 1B, but MTD, Jr., also made the following comment after watching the replay: "The gods of baseball got it right. F3 had no business fielding the ball. This should have been a routine 4-3 ground out, with the B/R being out by a mile."

By the way Jim Joyce is a NW Ohio boy, having graduated for Toledo (Ohio) Central Catholic H.S. and Bowling Green (Ohio) State Univ.; he played baseball at both schools. He now livesi in Oregon, Ohio, an eastern suburb of Toledo. I do not recall ever meeting him because he was in the Majors before I moved to Toledo.

MTD, Sr.

[LMan]

Will Selig or Tigers official scorer retroactively rule the play an error?

[DLH17]

I was impressed with Joyce's decision to admit he made a mistake on that call. Hopefully, this does not damage his career too much, if at all.

Leyland's comment about Joyce during his post game interview were classy and might help soften a lot of potential impact to Joyce.

[cviverito]

I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one? Either way it matters not because, as we all know, Joyce thought the runner beat it.

I do see him begin to wind-up for the punch...but I give him credit for calling what his brain had instead of what his heart wanted.

[mbyron]

There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by mbyron

There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.

By rule, then, that is not a catch of the ball and therefore should not be ruled an out. When tagging a base or runner, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball immediately before, during, and immediately after the tag is applied. This did not seem to occur in the play in question.

The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason."

Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why.