Base award on Appeal overthrow

[tibear]

Had a situation last night that I'm fairly certain I got right but just want to verify.

R1 with 1 out, BR hits flyball that looks like it might drop in. R1 is almost at second base when left fielder makes a great catch and comes up firing to first trying to get R1. Ball gets passed everyone and ends up in dead ball territory.

What base is R1 awarded?

[mbyron]

2 bases from time of throw. He must retouch, even if the ball is dead.

[waltjp]

Third base.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by mbyron

2 bases from time of throw. He must retouch, even if the ball is dead.

Just to clarify: place the runner at third base. Do not let the defensive coach try to argue the so-called "1+1" rule where the runner gets the base he's trying for plus one more and that after the catch in the outfield the base he is trying for is a return to first.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Just to clarify: place the runner at third base. Do not let the defensive coach try to argue the so-called "1+1" rule where the runner gets the base he's trying for plus one more and that after the catch in the outfield the base he is trying for is a return to first.

This was the exact scenario, didn't buy it and awarded third. The next inning the opposition manager came to me and asked why his runner got third. He was surprised that all throws that don't come from the rubber are two base awards, either from time of pitch or time of throw.

I shouldn't be surprised by the ignorance of coaches but we're not talking about first time coaches, these are guys that have been in the game for 15-20 years.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by tibear

I shouldn't be surprised by the ignorance of coaches but we're not talking about first time coaches, these are guys that have been in the game for 15-20 years.

That doesn't mean they've ever read a rule book.

[charliej47]

I once awarded a dead-ball award and informed the runner he was awarded 3rd base. He was between 2nd and 3rd at the time of the award.

The runner proceeded to 3rd base.

PU puts the ball back into play. I was expecting an appeal on a missed base at 1st. Nobody said anything and the inning ended with the next batter hitting a pop-up.

Between innings the DC came out and asked me about the award and appeal. He wanted to know why I had not called the runner out for not going back and touching 1st base.

I informed the coach that umpires no longer call runners out for missing a base.

I got the "deer in the headlights" look and he went back to the dugout.

[tjones1]

Twist it a little..

Situation 1: If R1 was between 2nd and 3rd when F9 made an amazing catch, then F9 wildly rocketed it back into DBT (R1 still in between 2nd and 3rd at TOT)...R1 may not retouch and is out on appeal; award 2 bases from TOT (award home).

Situation 2: R1. BR hits it in deep right-center. F9 makes a great catch. Seeing R1 is almost to 3rd but slamming on the brakes, a smart but not so smart F9 thinks "Man, I've got him dead-red if I throw into DHT." F9 intentionally throws into DBT. The umpire judges F9 intentionally threw into DBT.

This is a situation where we allow R1 to return to touch; however (I can't remember), in this exception, is the award now from the TOP?

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Twist it a little..

Situation 1: If R1 was between 2nd and 3rd when F9 made an amazing catch, then F9 wildly rocketed it back into DBT (R1 still in between 2nd and 3rd at TOT)...R1 may not retouch and is out on appeal; award 2 bases from TOT (award home).

Situation 2: R1. BR hits it in deep right-center. F9 makes a great catch. Seeing R1 is almost to 3rd but slamming on the brakes, a smart but not so smart F9 thinks "Man, I've got him dead-red if I throw into DHT." F9 intentionally throws into DBT. The umpire judges F9 intentionally threw into DBT.

This is a situation where we allow R1 to return to touch; however (I can't remember), in this exception, is the award now from the TOP?

A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into DBT to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner 2 bases. This allows the runner(s) to correct any base-running error.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Twist it a little..

Situation 1: If R1 was between 2nd and 3rd when F9 made an amazing catch, then F9 wildly rocketed it back into DBT (R1 still in between 2nd and 3rd at TOT)...R1 may not retouch and is out on appeal; award 2 bases from TOT (award home).

Situation 2: R1. BR hits it in deep right-center. F9 makes a great catch. Seeing R1 is almost to 3rd but slamming on the brakes, a smart but not so smart F9 thinks "Man, I've got him dead-red if I throw into DHT." F9 intentionally throws into DBT. The umpire judges F9 intentionally threw into DBT.

This is a situation where we allow R1 to return to touch; however (I can't remember), in this exception, is the award now from the TOP?

I don't think so. Since the throw is from the outfield, it should be time of throw. From the infield it would be time of pitch.

[tjones1]

Ok, so it's still TOT and we are going to award R1 home. However, we will allow R1 to re-touch 1st.

[fbara]

I believe we award R1 home, because he was past second base and that's seen as the last legally acquired base. We allow him to retouch first, but then he has to touch all other bases on his way home.

The defense can appeal at first and R1 can be out on a proper appeal.

[BaBa Booey]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Ok, so it's still TOT and we are going to award R1 home. However, we will allow R1 to re-touch 1st.

I believe in the Major League manual you initially award him home, and as soon as he goes back and retouches 1st, you change the award to 3rd base.

If anyone has a copy they can verify.

It might not be this play, but there is in fact a play where the award is changed when the runner properly retouches his base.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BaBa Booey

I believe in the Major League manual you initially award him home, and as soon as he goes back and retouches 1st, you change the award to 3rd base.

If anyone has a copy they can verify.

It might not be this play, but there is in fact a play where the award is changed when the runner properly retouches his base.

BaBa Booey,

From the MLBUM:

5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first s wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

It is the same in FED as specified in 8-3-5.

JM

[tjones1]

Thanks JM for the reference. That's what I thought.