appeal after overthrow

[_Bruno_]

sit : R1, 0 outs,
R1 steals on the pitch. der ball is hit to RF where F9 catches the ball and throws to F3 but the throw is wild and goes into the dugout and R1 standing on 2ndbase (R2 thought there were 2 outs or what else).

was this already an "appeal overtrhow" or can the defense still appeal against R1 (if he does not retouch) ?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

sit : R1, 0 outs,
R1 steals on the pitch. der ball is hit to RF where F9 catches the ball and throws to F3 but the throw is wild and goes into the dugout and R1 standing on 2ndbase (R2 thought there were 2 outs or what else).

was this already an "appeal overtrhow" or can the defense still appeal against R1 (if he does not retouch) ?

This was "continuous action." The defense can still make an appeal.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

sit : R1, 0 outs,
R1 steals on the pitch. der ball is hit to RF where F9 catches the ball and throws to F3 but the throw is wild and goes into the dugout and R1 standing on 2ndbase (R2 thought there were 2 outs or what else).

was this already an "appeal overtrhow" or can the defense still appeal against R1 (if he does not retouch) ?

It's not an appeal.

[_Bruno_]

i read the PBUC and J/R for this but couldnt find any examples that cover this.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It's not an appeal.

7.08(d): Any runner is out when...he fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play.

[bossman72]

Another interesting point is that the very next modification they should make to the OBR is changing 7.10 (b)(2) to clarify that if R1 decides to retouch first base in this situation after the ball has become dead, this would be ok (the way it reads now is that if you were anywhere beyond 2nd base when the ball becomes dead, you can't retouch first, which is incorrect as per MLBUM. However, i think this is the actual rule in FED ball).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

7.08(d): Any runner is out when...he fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play.

It says "This is an appeal play" to distinguish it from a force play and any consequences as to whether or not a run scores under 4.09 exceptions. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

PLUS, the throw described is obviously NOT the appeal. It was just a "head off the runner" throw. The appeal would have to be made by tagging first or tagging the runner who is now on 2B. The throw went to 3B. It is not an appeal.

Plays made during continuous action do not negate the right to appeal. Otherwist the fefense would have to stop attempts for other outs and go for an appeal immediately.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Another interesting point is that the very next modification they should make to the OBR is changing 7.10 (b)(2) to clarify that if R1 decides to retouch first base in this situation after the ball has become dead, this would be ok (the way it reads now is that if you were anywhere beyond 2nd base when the ball becomes dead, you can't retouch first, which is incorrect as per MLBUM. However, i think this is the actual rule in FED ball).

No - it says you can't return if you touch the next base when to ball is dead. The ball doesn't die until it goes into DBT. As long as you don't touch the next base after it dies, you can return.

You are corrrect about the FED version.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

sit : R1, 0 outs,
R1 steals on the pitch. der ball is hit to RF where F9 catches the ball and throws to F3 but the throw is wild and goes into the dugout and R1 standing on 2ndbase (R2 thought there were 2 outs or what else).

was this already an "appeal overtrhow" or can the defense still appeal against R1 (if he does not retouch) ?

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It says "This is an appeal play" to distinguish it from a force play and any consequences as to whether or not a run scores under 4.09 exceptions. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

PLUS, the throw described is obviously NOT the appeal. It was just a "head off the runner" throw. The appeal would have to be made by tagging first or tagging the runner who is now on 2B. The throw went to 3B. It is not an appeal.

Plays made during continuous action do not negate the right to appeal. Otherwist the fefense would have to stop attempts for other outs and go for an appeal immediately.

the throw went to F3 after a fly ball caught. it wasn't heading off the runner, it was thrown behind him. why else would they throw to F3 other than to make an appeal? it's continuous action if they are making a play on an advancing runner. in this case they are making a play on a retreating runner...an appeal play. the ball is thrown away and goes into the dugout. i'm not going to allow them to appeal again. i haven't investigated this, i'm just thinking like i would in a game situation. that is the exact argument i would give when the skipper comes out to see why i won't let him appeal. this is subject to protest if you'd like.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

the throw went to F3 after a fly ball caught. it wasn't heading off the runner, it was thrown behind him. why else would they throw to F3 other than to make an appeal? it's continuous action if they are making a play on an advancing runner. in this case they are making a play on a retreating runner...an appeal play. the ball is thrown away and goes into the dugout. i'm not going to allow them to appeal again. i haven't investigated this, i'm just thinking like i would in a game situation. that is the exact argument i would give when the skipper comes out to see why i won't let him appeal. this is subject to protest if you'd like.

Sorry Bobby, your incorrect. This is continuous action and has no bearing on whether a runner is advancing or retreating to a base. Until there is a definitive break in the action or the ball becomes dead the defense may make as many plays as desired without losing the right to appeal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

the throw went to F3 after a fly ball caught. it wasn't heading off the runner, it was thrown behind him. why else would they throw to F3 other than to make an appeal? it's continuous action if they are making a play on an advancing runner. in this case they are making a play on a retreating runner...an appeal play. the ball is thrown away and goes into the dugout. i'm not going to allow them to appeal again. i haven't investigated this, i'm just thinking like i would in a game situation. that is the exact argument i would give when the skipper comes out to see why i won't let him appeal. this is subject to protest if you'd like.

I made the same argument here a few weeks ago, and I too was shot down. Apparently this is considered continuous action, although for the life of me I don't see how. I argued that the only reason for the throw to F3 was an obvious appeal play, but the consensus is that it falls under continuous action and does not represent the actual appeal.

They said that if the ball had been returned to F1 and then thrown out of play they would lose the right to appeal. I still think it's a bad interpretation to allow an appeal after throwing the ball in the dugout but I guess I'm wrong in this case.

[bobbybanaduck]

as i stated, feel free to protest. the burden, however, is on you to prove it. if i'm working the game and that happens, you've got my ruling and interpretation. put your coaching shoes on (or TD shoes, whatever) and make your case for upholding a protest and overturning the ruling. no "he said she said" no "this is what we do around here" or " not trying to pick a fight, just asking you to prove it. i said before i hadn't done any research yet, but now i have. this could get interesting...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It says "This is an appeal play" to distinguish it from a force play and any consequences as to whether or not a run scores under 4.09 exceptions. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

PLUS, the throw described is obviously NOT the appeal. It was just a "head off the runner" throw. The appeal would have to be made by tagging first or tagging the runner who is now on 2B. The throw went to 3B. It is not an appeal.

Plays made during continuous action do not negate the right to appeal. Otherwist the fefense would have to stop attempts for other outs and go for an appeal immediately.

If you mean 'F3' and 'defense' here, then I agree with you. This explanation is much clearer, and it is not entailed by your earlier, cryptic, "This is not an appeal," which flatly contradicts the plain text of the rule.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

the throw went to F3 after a fly ball caught. it wasn't heading off the runner, it was thrown behind him. why else would they throw to F3 other than to make an appeal? it's continuous action if they are making a play on an advancing runner. in this case they are making a play on a retreating runner...an appeal play. the ball is thrown away and goes into the dugout. i'm not going to allow them to appeal again. i haven't investigated this, i'm just thinking like i would in a game situation. that is the exact argument i would give when the skipper comes out to see why i won't let him appeal. this is subject to protest if you'd like.

Well, I agree with Bobby here. There is no rhyme or reason to throw to F3 other than to appeal that R1 left early on the catch. As stated in the scenario, R1 was stealing on the pitch so F9 is either appealing or a complete idiot! So when the coach comes out and finishes his tirade, I'm simply going to tell him that it was an appeal in my judgment and he can do as he wishes from that point.

Furthermore, this may be considered "continuous action" at a LL level due to lack of baseball knowledge and training but at the HS and above level I do not agree.

Regards

[PeteBooth]

the ball is thrown away and goes into the dugout. i'm not going to allow them to appeal again. i haven't investigated this, i'm just thinking like i would in a game situation. that is the exact argument i would give when the skipper comes out to see why i won't let him appeal. this is subject to protest if you'd like.

[/QUOTE]

From the OP

R1 is standing on second base when the ball went into DBT

You as an umpire do the following:

1. TIME as soon as the ball enters DBT

2. I would point to the runner and say Number 23 Home (assumption is that since R1 was stealing he had achieved second base at the TOT)

Now as an umpire we simply observe. R1 now R2 goes on to touch third and now touch home. He did not correct his base running mistake

After the PU puts the ball back into play F1 throws to F3 and appeals that R1 left early.

Why would you not allow the defense to appeal? Just because the defense erred on their throw to F3 doesn't relieve the runner of their base running responsibilities.

Pete Booth