Base award on Appeal overthrow

[BaBa Booey]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Ok, so it's still TOT and we are going to award R1 home. However, we will allow R1 to re-touch 1st.

I believe in the Major League manual you initially award him home, and as soon as he goes back and retouches 1st, you change the award to 3rd base.

If anyone has a copy they can verify.

It might not be this play, but there is in fact a play where the award is changed when the runner properly retouches his base.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BaBa Booey

I believe in the Major League manual you initially award him home, and as soon as he goes back and retouches 1st, you change the award to 3rd base.

If anyone has a copy they can verify.

It might not be this play, but there is in fact a play where the award is changed when the runner properly retouches his base.

BaBa Booey,

From the MLBUM:

5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first s wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

It is the same in FED as specified in 8-3-5.

JM

[tjones1]

Thanks JM for the reference. That's what I thought.

[greymule]

Whether the throw is from the outfield or the infield is immaterial, except for first play by an infielder in OBR.

OBR differs from Fed in terms of when the runner can no longer legally return to retouch a base left too soon (unless Fed changed its rule recently).

In Fed, if when the ball enters DBT the runner is on or beyond the base after the one he left too soon, he cannot legally retouch, even if he was already retreating when the ball entered DBT.

[DG]

Great reference.

[BretMan]

Had the exact same play as in the OP a couple of weeks ago (FED game).This was in the late innings of a close game and this runner scored on a hit two batters latter, proving to be the winning run.

After awarding the runner third base, the defensive coach wants time to discuss it. He's adamant that the runner should only get second base because he "left early and has to tag up" and puts up a bit of a fuss. He did tag up, as the ball sailed out of play, and he gets two bases. Sorry, no dice.

Just his being out of the dugout and questioning the call gets the fans on his side aggitated and they're getting pretty animated.

So, the runner eventually scores, nobody scores in the seventh and that's the ballgame- a close loss for one side.

As my partner and I step off the field, two fans corner us about "that play" and want to know why the runner got third. "Because that's the rule", I tell tell them.

We get another few feet and another guy cuts us off to tell us we blew that call. He says he knows the rule "because he plays slow pitch softball"! The guy gets a little belligerant, so we just blow him off.

We get to our cars and some white-haired grandmotherly type comes up and just literally rips us both a new one! She goes off on a rant about how we "robbed the kids" and "it's not fair" and we "should never be allowed to umpire any games again". She's just totally blowing a gasket and laying into us! The sight of this old broad ripping into us was so comical I couldn't help myself and just looked at my partner and laughed.

This was, by far, the worst fan reaction to any call in any game I've been involved with so far this year. The ironic part of it is that we were getting chewed up for making the 100% absolutely correct call!

[tibear]

I was mentoring a brand new umpire last night and one of their questions was, "What's the hardest thing about being an umpire?"

My response was, dealing with coaches, players and fans that think they know the rulebook but in reality, don't have a clue.

In their minds they are 100% correct but if they ever took the chance to actually read the rulebook, they would be surprised about their level of ignorance.

[Altor]

One thing the MLBUM ruling doesn't mention, but is probably obvious to most people on this board. Doesn't the runner between second and third also have to touch second on his way back to first?

So, if the ball went into DBT while he's between second and third, he's initially awarded home. But, he needs to touch second, then first. At this point, his award is changed to third. He again needs to touch second on his way to third.

[tjones1]

Yes.

[BaBa Booey]

Originally Posted by Altor

One thing the MLBUM ruling doesn't mention, but is probably obvious to most people on this board. Doesn't the runner between second and third also have to touch second on his way back to first?

So, if the ball went into DBT while he's between second and third, he's initially awarded home. But, he needs to touch second, then first. At this point, his award is changed to third. He again needs to touch second on his way to third.

JM, thanks for the reference!

Also, in this situation, wouldn't the general principle of "last time by" be applicable if he went directly back to first and then touched second on his way to third?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BaBa Booey

JM, thanks for the reference!

Also, in this situation, wouldn't the general principle of "last time by" be applicable if he went directly back to first and then touched second on his way to third?

Yes.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BaBa Booey

JM, thanks for the reference!

Also, in this situation, wouldn't the general principle of "last time by" be applicable if he went directly back to first and then touched second on his way to third?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

I must have missed this. Is the principle "last time by" spelled out somewhere. Is it true for all codes? Thanks

-Josh

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I must have missed this. Is the principle "last time by" spelled out somewhere. Is it true for all codes? Thanks

-Josh

Yes, true for all codes.

The principle is implicit in the base running rules (acquire by passing, definition of 'touch', retouch, appeals, etc.).

No rule says "each time by."