Asking for Help

[David B]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

Thank you Tim, was waiting to read that.

Its' BU's call at first, make it.

There are a few situations (a tag attempt) where BU might need to ask did he tag (Coach outlined in A how to do that properly), but that should be very rare.

And I would add, that would be when BU might be in the B or C position and F3 makes the tag blocking the view.

Thanks
David

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by David B

Thank you Tim, was waiting to read that.

Its' BU's call at first, make it.

There are a few situations (a tag attempt) where BU might need to ask did he tag (Coach outlined in A how to do that properly), but that should be very rare.

And I would add, that would be when BU might be in the B or C position and F3 makes the tag blocking the view.

Thanks
David

I had this exact call last year as BU. Swinging bunt down 1B line, I was in C, I had F1, B/R, F3 all in one area, I could not see the tag...it sure looked like there was one...but didn't want to guess...so I asked PU. His view was unobstructed.

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

I am not a big fan of going for help but occasionally I will if I think I missed something. It happens once or twice a season at most. I had two interesting "help" situations in a game two weeks ago. My partner's mechanics were a little weak and I think it contributed greatly to the help or lack there of. First play involved a pickoff of R2 after a foul ball. I had no idea if my partner had put the ball back in play because he was not very demonstrative. After the tag and second, which got the runner easily, I made no call. I turned to my partner and asked "Did you have the ball in play" and he said "yes". I turned around and emphatically called R2 out.

The second was just poor play and some weak mechanics. High pop fly between 3B and HP that was tracking the line. F1 and F5 are jockeying for the ball and both miss it. My partner can see the ball land in fair territory and then bounce foul but he can't see if either fielder makes contact with the ball over fair territory. I was in C and 90 degrees to the play and could clearly see neither fielder touch it. He could have easily pointed at me and said "Do you have a touch (or contact)" and I would have said "No". The foul call could have been emphatic at that point. Instead, we had a bunch of coaches and players scratching their heads for 30 seconds or so trying to figure out what happened. My partner finally made a weak foul call which he later admitted was way to weak and the timing was poor..

Oh well....

[David B]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I had this exact call last year as BU. Swinging bunt down 1B line, I was in C, I had F1, B/R, F3 all in one area, I could not see the tag...it sure looked like there was one...but didn't want to guess...so I asked PU. His view was unobstructed.

Yes, it worked that time, but I had game last week, same type of play, but I'm PU and have R3 coming home.

BU makes what looks like right call with me having to stay at the plate, but coach asks and here comes BU asking me for help.

I told him between later, you have to know the situation and make your own call, i have other responsibilities.

Thanks
David

[kylejt]

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

The danger in asking for help on calls is that managers will expect you to ask for help on rountine bangers. That's not going to happen.

I had a manager last night, away from the field, ask me why one of my umpires wouldn't get help on call like I described above. So I asked him what he asked the umpire. He just said to him "Can you get help on that?", and my 12 year old BU said no, it was his call to make. I told the manager that next time he should say "I think the first baseman pulled his foot, can you ask the PU for help?". The key is what the manager requests of you. They've got to be specific in their request. That's what I've taught my kids.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Great post, Kyle.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

Why?

I work a bit in the tournaments on a small diamond and I treat it no differently than the big diamonds. I get an angle to see the foot / tag best I can and I make the call. It's my call. If I don't go into it thinking that the plate guy can bail me out, I'm more likely going to work harder to get the right look.

The coaches asking to "get help" on every close play isn't a real effort to "get more calls right." It's an effort to get more calls go their way. Most times, the coach himself has a worse view than the base umpire in the small diamond C position. He's in the 3rd base box. At least 95% of the pulled foot requests I hear involve plays where the fielder stretches, holds the bag, and comes off right after the catch. The umpire looks at the foot, the coach does not and only sees the foot away from the bag a second or two later. Why should I appease him when I *saw* the foot on the bag. And yet I'm "arrogant" if I don't "get help."

If I truly think I need help, I will get it without hesitation. I officiate basketball and I probably go to a partner on an out-of-bounds call on my line at least once a game (and that's with 3 officials). I just don't think that a coach asking is enough for me to go and ask. I truly need to think I may not have seen something, and frankly that doesn't happen very often.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Why?

I work a bit in the tournaments on a small diamond and I treat it no differently than the big diamonds. I get an angle to see the foot / tag best I can and I make the call. It's my call. If I don't go into it thinking that the plate guy can bail me out, I'm more likely going to work harder to get the right look.

The coaches asking to "get help" on every close play isn't a real effort to "get more calls right." It's an effort to get more calls go their way. Most times, the coach himself has a worse view than the base umpire in the small diamond C position. He's in the 3rd base box. At least 95% of the pulled foot requests I hear involve plays where the fielder stretches, holds the bag, and comes off right after the catch. The umpire looks at the foot, the coach does not and only sees the foot away from the bag a second or two later. Why should I appease him when I *saw* the foot on the bag. And yet I'm "arrogant" if I don't "get help."

If I truly think I need help, I will get it without hesitation. I officiate basketball and I probably go to a partner on an out-of-bounds call on my line at least once a game (and that's with 3 officials). I just don't think that a coach asking is enough for me to go and ask. I truly need to think I may not have seen something, and frankly that doesn't happen very often.

Had this happen over the weekend:

NFHS Rules. Im in B, R1, no outs. Double play ground ball to SS. 1B makes a modest stretch and catches the ball. There is no off-line throw or anything else. Call at 1B seems pretty straightforward and from where I am. On the way back to A, 1B coach asks for an appeal to my partner. What exactly do you say and how do you handle an assistant asking for an appeal? Hows something along the lines of "an appeal has to come from HC, if one is requested."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

What exactly do you say and how do you handle an assistant asking for an appeal?

Look at him funny and ignore him.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Had this happen over the weekend:

NFHS Rules. Im in B, R1, no outs. Double play ground ball to SS. 1B makes a modest stretch and catches the ball. There is no off-line throw or anything else. Call at 1B seems pretty straightforward and from where I am. On the way back to A, 1B coach asks for an appeal to my partner. What exactly do you say and how do you handle an assistant asking for an appeal? Hows something along the lines of "an appeal has to come from HC, if one is requested."

IMO, this is an art. Some people like to pretend that ASSt. coaches don't exist; this has not worked for me, and around here umpires are expected to interact with ASSt. coaches.

What I say often depends on how the coach asks me. If he's shouting, I'll tend to ignore him and look over at the head coach (usually in the 3rd base coaching box or the dugout) and see whether he has a question about the play. If he persists, I'll tell him that the head coach isn't concerned, and we're going to play ball. Otherwise, I'll answer the head coach.

If the question is quiet and respectful, I'll generally answer it on my way back to my position: "That's my call all the way, and I saw the whole play; if I needed help, I would have already asked for it."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short

How do you get "backed up"? I move towards third on this play, opening up a better angle on the play at first. I see too many guys move towards second (straight-lining them) or trying to get to the infield grass (and then giving up because the fielder and/or runner is in the way).

Angles can be gotten. Sometimes putting yourself farther away gives you a better angle.

[MrUmpire]

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

Unless, in some rare instances, you want to get the call correct, rather than further this illusion that you are imperious and irreproachable.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

Re 5.: Trust me, I'm pretty up on how things go on the 60' field.

Two man mechanics, on a LL field, require the BU to be behind the shortstop in a lot of situations. Bullets hit to F6 sometimes get the BU caught behind him, with no time to get an angle. A good PU will look down the line for a pulled foot when the BU is in C, on the little field. And yeah. the PU has a much better view of a heal being off the bag, than a guy in the grass behind the shortstop.