Asking for Help

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks, JM.

Doesn't "B" set you up to be questioned on any close play? I agree with asking for help in A but I think B sets you up for a lot of conversations. If I'm the ump and I "saw what I saw" and wasn't obstructed why would I open a can of worms?

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

[Spence]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

Coach "yells" = I don't hear so well.

Coach talks politley = I'll be happy to oblige your request (generally speaking)

You said that the coach yells "he dropped the ball" - probably not getting much response

Other than that, JM's response still holds true.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

Spence,

The sitch you describe is one of "the NCAA seven" AND "the MLBUM six" - situations where the non-calling umpire may offer his unsolicited input if he is 110% certain that the ball was not securely possessed through the tag AND his partner did not see it come loose. It is still the calling umpire's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to change his call.

If a coach asks me to check with my partner in this sitch, I just say, "I already did."

JM

[APG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

The sitch you describe is one of "the NCAA seven" AND "the MLBUM six" - situations where the non-calling umpire may offer his unsolicited input if he is 110% certain that the ball was not securely possessed through the tag AND his partner did not see it come loose. It is still the calling umpire's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to change his call.

Basketball official here as well. Would you mind spelling out what are the 7 situations for NCAA and 6 for MLB?

[UmpJM]

Geez,

Don't you basketball guys know how to look stuff up?

The NCAA 7:

C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100 percent certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information.

However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.

1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
3) Cases in which a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases in which a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because he did not see a ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

The MLBUM 6:

(3) In a limited number of situations, a partner may have critical information that is unknown to the umpire making the call. When the partner is certain that the umpire making the call could benefit from such additional information, the partner should alert the other umpire that there is additional, important information that should be shared. While the mechanics of bringing this information to the attention of the umpire who made the call is left to the crews (walking towards the partner, inconspicuous signal, etc.), crucial, potential call-changing information should not be withheld on a play that has clearly been missed. As noted in the Official Baseball Rules, "Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error."

Nevertheless, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the umpire who made the call.

Plays such as the following lend themselves to the philosophy described above:

- Deciding whether a fly ball that left the playing field was fair or foul.
- Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground-rule double.
- Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball.
- Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because a ball is dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
- Spectator interference plays.
- Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

JM

[Chris_Hickman]

You are going to "own" that call. It is one thing if you are in the B or C... but you are standing right there. You cannot ask your partner to bail you out on that one.

[BaBa Booey]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

First, you want to make sure you check for firm and secure possesion before you make your call. There are certain situations, however, where you just can't see the bobble and then the player comes up and shows you the ball. This is unavoidable for the most part, and it is just part of the game.

[constable]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

That's good because according to ORB, you have too.

Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner
for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a
strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not
ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly
respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for
information about a half swing.
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home
plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call
the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

[kylejt]

If a manager calls me Blue, Mr. Umpire, ( do like Your Majesty, though) or any other standard moniker, it just means they didn't bother to remember my name at the plate meeting. If they use "Hey Kyle,....", it meant they were paying attention, and my plate meeting wasn't a waste of time. To me, it means something.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by constable

That's good because according to ORB, you have too.

I suppose you mean OBR. In FED there's no such requirement, so it's saying something when JM announces that he always checks.

[JRutledge]

I am old school with a new school feel. I cannot stand the "get it right at all cost" philosophy. It drives me crazy that umpires every situation feel they need to ask for help. No other sport spends that much time trying to get help on every situation. For one we are not always looking at the same thing and we should not be looking at the same time. And I am with Rich, I hate umpires that cannot refuse a request for "help" from a coach. When it is not appropriate or I know my partner cannot help, I am not asking for help. And yes I have refused requests for checked swings when it is obvious there was no such call that needs to be made. But then again I do not do what the pack does and some reason I have been fine most of my career. We worry way too much about what coaches think when they clearly have an agenda.

Peace

[David B]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am old school with a new school feel. I cannot stand the "get it right at all cost" philosophy. It drives me crazy that umpires every situation feel they need to ask for help. No other sport spends that much time trying to get help on every situation. For one we are not always looking at the same thing and we should not be looking at the same time. And I am with Rich, I hate umpires that cannot refuse a request for "help" from a coach. When it is not appropriate or I know my partner cannot help, I am not asking for help. And yes I have refused requests for checked swings when it is obvious there was no such call that needs to be made. But then again I do not do what the pack does and some reason I have been fine most of my career. We worry way too much about what coaches think when they clearly have an agenda.

Peace

Good point. Too many umpires that I run into spend way too much time worrying about what a "coach" wants.

A coach only wants a couple things, to win and get the next call to go his way.

thanks
David