The weird stuff!

[His High Holiness]

Before you read this post get your mind into high school game administration. Get a picture in your mind of the scorekeeper, press box, and typical mediocre federation plate umpire. In other words, don't imagine perfection or ideal situations, imagine how things are in the real world.

I have been umpiring for 40 years. I have been umpiring high school baseball for 20 years. My written records only go back 20 years but I have only had one batting out of order in 20 years in any type of baseball. Until this season that is.

This season I have had two BOOs and both involved the same home team. That makes me very suspicious. (My suspicions were confirmed when I checked with others.) I was the BU on both occasions so I may not have all the facts correct but I will attempt to reconstruct what happened and what I think happened. As the BU, I did not get involved until late in the process when the PU became embroiled in the controversy.

Federation rules!

The eighth batter is the proper batter in both my personal experiences and in other situations that I have heard of. A pinch hitter comes out to the plate. There is a matter of disagreement as to whether he reports to the PU or not. (In other words, is he an unannounced substitute?) If he does report to the PU, he says that he is batting for the ninth batter. (It appears that the official scorekeeper who is controlled by the home team and the press box [also controlled by the home team] are in on the ruse. The coach does not, under any circumstance, state the position of the PH in the batting order!) The PU enters the name and number in the 9th hole on his line up sheet and points to the press box. (The visiting team has no indication who this guy is batting for and assumes it is the eighth batter.) The press box announces the pinch hitter but does not say who the pinch hitter is replacing.

The PH bats and may or may not get on base. Then the 1st batter in the order steps up to the plate. After he takes one pinch (and I am guessing what happens now), the official scorekeeper and the press box write in the previous pinch hitter in the ninth slot. (If for some reason, the visiting team objects to the 1st batter batting before he takes a pitch, I assume that the scorekeeper and press box enter the PH in the eighth hole and the PU is told that he screwed up, and then the ninth batter bats. No penalty. I have not heard of this happening but I have read that this is the way this cheating method works. If necessary, the PH insists that he told the PU that he was batting in the 8th slot and the PU screwed up. The PU is easily convinced that he screwed up because he has three different people telling him so.)

Anyway, here in Northern Va, the 1st batter has batted and got on base before the visiting team appeals. The visiting team has every reason to believe that PH hit for the eighth batter and the 1st batter is BOO. Not so! The official scorekeeper, the press box, and the maybe the plate umpire all show that the PH entered for the ninth batter and since the 1st batter has batted, it is to late to appeal BOO. The home team acts very innocent like it was an honest mistake. The visiting team goes ballistic and the umpires take sh!t. It is the PU's fault because he did not tell the visiting team who the PH was coming in for, but we are dealing, not with perfection, but with reality.

The second time that I saw this unfold and had finally figured out what was really going on, I wandered in as the PU was having a meeting with the scorekeepers. Neither team coach was in on the discussion because they had both been restricted to the dugout for previous misconduct. After it was all over, and the visiting team had been f$cked again, I said to the home team scorekeeper:

"I know that cheating is part of baseball. Congratulations on pulling this off."

The home team scorekeeper had a surprised look on his face at first and then a very sheepish grin crossed his face as he turned and walked away. (In this case, we had got to batter number 2 before the visiting team had figured out what was going on so they were screwed no matter what.)

The reason for this post is that I remember reading that this scam was tried in the big leagues 80-100 years ago. I recall that in response, a rule was instituted that said that a pinch hitter was always the proper batter no matter what was told to the plate umpire. In other words, in this case, we should have forced him into the eighth slot after the fact, no matter what anybody said. This would be the case for OBR, but I have no clue what Federation rules would be.

The federation reentry and illegal substitution rules further complicate these situations.

My assignor has never shown a willingness to root out cheating. (It's bad for business to accuse your customers of being cheaters.) I submitted a written report be I was lead to believe that he will not be acting on it.

Does anyone have any input on this. Carl, where are you?

One final item. The first time this happened, I walked away thinking that the home team was very well versed on BOO rules. They knew the rule better than most umpires. I should have been suspicious right then.

Peter

[tjones1]

Sad... but hopefully it will come back and bite them soon enough.

You are correct in your thinking.

According to the BRD, 87 Batter: Improper Batter: Substitute Report/Enter for Wrong Batter

There is no provision and Carl states to treat as in OBR.

OBR reads point not coverved; however, Mike Fitzpatrick (former director of PBUC) offered this:

"A substitute cannot bat out of order, for he is replacing whoever should be at the plate. There is no penalty when the substitute reports for the wrong player if the batting order is not affected."

Play 71-87: Able should bat. Substitute Jackson arrives at the plate and tells the UIC: "I'm Jackson, batting for Baker." The umpire pencils in the change but does not catch the error. Jackson singles. Now Baker bats and singes. Before a pitch or a play, the defense appeals. Ruling: No penalty. The substitute reported for the wrong player, but the batting order continued without interruption.

HOWEVER...

Fitzpatrick: If the pitcher bats for anyone other than the DH: When appealed properly, the pitcher is an improper batter. The proper batter is out and removed from the game. The pitcher will continue to bat in the spot of the replaced player, and the new defensive player hits in the DH spot. The role of the DH is terminated whenever the infraction is discovered.

Play: NCAA and OBR only. Able should bat but the pitcher Jackson reports as a pinch hitter. The umpire does not discover the error. After Jackson walks, the defense appeals. Ruling: In NCAA, the pitcher is ejected and replaced with a pinch runner. The role of the DH is not affected. In OBR, Able is out and removed from the game. Baker will lead off the next half inning. The role of the DH s terminated, whenever discovered. The player replacing Able will hit in the DH spot.

Carl notes this: "Some internet 'experts' on the newsgroup went to great lengths to prove that Fitzpatrick's interpretation was wrong. Mike might not be right, but he cannnot be wrong. LOL" [Edit: Wrong in regard to the pitcher batting for anyone other than the DH]

[MrUmpire]

I quit reading after seeing that the umpire did not give the PH information to the opposing book.

I haven't worked with umpires that "mediocre".

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I quit reading after seeing that the umpire did not give the PH information to the opposing book.

I haven't worked with umpires that "mediocre".

I agree. When a batter comes up and says, "13 coming in, Blue," I'm asking him who he's replacing in the lineup. If he doesn't know, he's yelling back to find it. Once I get it, I'm going to the other book to report the change. Hopefully they'll notice the error and point it out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I agree. When a batter comes up and says, "13 coming in, Blue," I'm asking him who he's replacing in the lineup. If he doesn't know, he's yelling back to find it. Once I get it, I'm going to the other book to report the change. Hopefully they'll notice the error and point it out.

Around here the sub is generally announced, with a lot of shouts of "13 for 21! 13 for 21!" And given my system for writing subs (which I learned from our own Tee), I will know who has subbed for whom and will be able to adjudicate BOO.

OTOH, if the sub is not announced, then he's subbing for the correct batter. Doesn't matter what the coach's intention was here.

In other news, hi Peter! Long time no see...What was it you used to say about TWP's happening to TWU's?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by His High Holiness

Anyway, here in Northern Va,

Peter, as a fellow N VAite official myself, can you PM me the team/school? I don't do baseball (I'm a basketball official), so, no harm/no foul. Just curious.

Thanks.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by mbyron

And given my system for writing subs (which I learned from our own Tee).....

Could you share this system for some of us newer officials...always looking for a better way....thanks....Skarecrow

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I quit reading after seeing that the umpire did not give the PH information to the opposing book.

I haven't worked with umpires that "mediocre".

Then there's no reason for you to even be around people like us, then. So why do you even bother stooping to our level by coming here and commenting?

[His High Holiness]

OTOH, if the sub is not announced, then he's subbing for the correct batter. Doesn't matter what the coach's intention was here.

In other news, hi Peter! Long time no see...What was it you used to say about TWP's happening to TWU's?

Yes, and according to the BRD, even if he is an announced substitute for an incorrect batter, he was still batting for the correct batter even in FED. The umpire and scorekeepers are to change their records. A pinch hitter can never be BOO except in case of a pitcher with the DH rule.

Can you imagine trying to explain that to a coach?!!!!!!!!

Thank you to the poster for pointing me to the relevant BRD ruling. I knew I was right for OBR and NCAA, but I had was totally unaware that it applied to FED.

This gets more complicated in FED when the starting 9th batter tries to reenter as an unreported sub pinch hitter in the 8th hole.

As for TWP and TWU, I plead guilty. $hit happens to everyone sooner or later. My only defense is that I was not the PU and was totally unaware of what was going on until it was time to clean up the mess.

Peter

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

Could you share this system for some of us newer officials...always looking for a better way....thanks....Skarecrow

Not totally sure if this is the same as T's but, substitute comes in game I put his number next to starter and x out his number below, and circle starter number. No scratching out of names and subs should be listed below anyway with names. Circle means the player is eligible to return.

If starter comes back in I simply x out sub number. If another sub comes in for starter, starters number with circle gets x-out. This applies to DH also.

After the game you can easily read the lineup and names if a report is necessary, and it takes less time during the game writing a number, an X, or circling a number.

As already stated here, any change that goes on the sheet is relayed to the other book using numbers 6 for 8 etc. If the team says the ninth batter, well they better have a number to along with that request or we are not playing until there is. I really don't care if the announcer gets the change or not, I leave that up to the teams.

[Crabnut]

I think we already got here, but I am going to run through it the whole way just to be sure I got it right.

The substitute batted in the eighth spot. Doesn’t matter if he was announced wrong or written in the wrong spot in the book or the umpire’s lineup. He batted in the eighth spot. He is legitimately B8 once the next batter steps into the box, regardless of who he reported for, and the old B8 is no longer in the game. The next batter to follow, B1, got on base, whereupon play was stopped and a batting out of order appeal was made. B1 is batting out of order, for B9, who is still in the game regardless of what the book or PU’s lineup says. At that point, B1’s advance is nullified, other runners are returned to where they were before B1 got on base, B9 is declared out, and B1 becomes the next batter.

[His High Holiness]

Originally Posted by Crabnut

I think we already got here, but I am going to run through it the whole way just to be sure I got it right.

The substitute batted in the eighth spot. Doesn’t matter if he was announced wrong or written in the wrong spot in the book or the umpire’s lineup. He batted in the eighth spot. He is legitimately B8 once the next batter steps into the box, regardless of who he reported for, and the old B8 is no longer in the game. The next batter to follow, B1, got on base, whereupon play was stopped and a batting out of order appeal was made. B1 is batting out of order, for B9, who is still in the game regardless of what the book or PU’s lineup says. At that point, B1’s advance is nullified, other runners are returned to where they were before B1 got on base, B9 is declared out, and B1 becomes the next batter.

You are 100% correct in OBR and NCAA. However, this ruling is based on a phone conversation in 2001 between CC and Fitzpatrick. There is no known written record of this ruling. The BRD also says that you are correct in FED but that is Carl's opinion since FED has never ruled on this.

The exceptions are:

1. A pitcher entering the game to bat where the DH rule is used NCAA or OBR.

2. A reentering B9 Pinch hitter in FED batting for B8.

Peter

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Crabnut

I think we already got here, but I am going to run through it the whole way just to be sure I got it right.

The substitute batted in the eighth spot. Doesn’t matter if he was announced wrong or written in the wrong spot in the book or the umpire’s lineup. He batted in the eighth spot. He is legitimately B8 once the next batter steps into the box, regardless of who he reported for, and the old B8 is no longer in the game. The next batter to follow, B1, got on base, whereupon play was stopped and a batting out of order appeal was made. B1 is batting out of order, for B9, who is still in the game regardless of what the book or PU’s lineup says. At that point, B1’s advance is nullified, other runners are returned to where they were before B1 got on base, B9 is declared out, and B1 becomes the next batter.

Sounds fine to me EXCEPT you only return runners to where they were before the improper batter if their advancement was the result of the improper batter's actions. A steal, balk, wild pitch/passed ball, all count. I believe a steal on a CI counts as well. There are some other examples, OBS on a pickoff perhaps, that may allow him to stay where he is, or at the very least, not retreat back all the way to where he was when the improper batter came up.