Strike/out signal

[Rita C]

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rita C

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

In a word, no.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Rita C

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

I vote yes. Ask Doug Eddings.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Rita C

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I vote yes. Ask Doug Eddings.

But that's just it: Eddings signaled the strike with an outstretched arm, and then signaled the out with the fist.

The problem with that play did NOT result from his strike signal looking like his out signal. The problem was that Eddings changed his mind about the call.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

But that's just it: Eddings signaled the strike with an outstretched arm, and then signaled the out with the fist.

The problem with that play did NOT result from his strike signal looking like his out signal. The problem was that Eddings changed his mind about the call.

Now I gotta go video searching if I find some time 'cause I think the signals were very similar.

Memories play tricks on us all.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Now I gotta go video searching if I find some time 'cause I think the signals were very similar.

Memories play tricks on us all.

Eddings stuck his right arm out all the way (this was part of his normal swinging strike 3 mechanic actually) and then gave a hammer (still part of his normal strike 3 swinging strike mechanic). I remember because a couple of hitters before Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye struck out swinging on a pitch that was cleanly caught and Eddings gave the same mechanic as he did with AJ.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rita C

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

How does somone that ignorant get to be an obsever?

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rita C

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

I hammer strikes. My outs are unmistakable from the standard strike hammer. Some of my partners point. None of them point the same way for a strike as an out. If the difference is unmistakable no problem. If they look the same I agree.

I don't know any partners who do not have an unmistakeable out signal regardless of hammer or point.

[johnnyg08]

batter/batter-runner, catcher does not see the hammer or point anyway.

I used to point strikes and hammer my outs. Now I hammer both. Haven't had an issue with it. When I pointed, I didn't turn my head which is especially important when working 1-man. Whatever you teach him, teach him to pick one and stick with it. Mixing them up during the game is what confuses people.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

batter/batter-runner, catcher does not see the hammer or point anyway.

I used to point strikes and hammer my outs. Now I hammer both. Haven't had an issue with it. When I pointed, I didn't turn my head which is especially important when working 1-man. Whatever you teach him, teach him to pick one and stick with it. Mixing them up during the game is what confuses people.

Last year at my plate clinic, I did my strike three mechanic of a hammer-like thing to the side, while looking that direction. I was told by a trainer to not look away from the play or the field, in case something happens. I practiced it a few more times, and finally became comfortable with it in my second game of the year.

This year, I went to the plate clinic and did what I learned the year before. THE SAME TRAINER told me, "If you're going to hammer the third strike to the side, you have to look that direction. It looks stupid if you don't." I informed him that I was told last year to keep my head facing the field (I didn't inform him that HE was the one that told me). His response: "That person didn't know what he was talking about."

With that said, I changed my mechanic to take a step backward and hammer it toward the catcher. It keeps my eye on the play, and, to be frank, looks a lot better.

As for the OP, the observer's observation is crazy. The only way I can see a problem with it is if the kid isn't voicing his strikes and outs. In that case, a strike can look like an out. If that is the case, then the observer should have noted that instead of the mechanic: "Verbalize strikes and outs loud enough to be heard by the players." or something similar.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

I once had to make a call of a steal of home racing in from C position, because I had a partner turn and step and point and bark out a strike, while the catcher made a lob throw back to the pitcher and R3 broke for home. He never even saw the play.

I like the hammer. It's natural. I also like paying attention to what's going on. And above all else, I like making my own calls on steals of home. (My strike call hammer is slightly different than my out call hammer.)

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Rita C

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

Young ump may tend to be too tight.
Perhaps, a good rip or tear was required.
There is a huge difference in style points.

[bniu]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

you may want to try this, i find it works really really well and i wish softball would get off their high pedestal and take a look at it too:

For called strikes 1 and 2 as well as check swing strikes, continue to hammer as usual (i use this as a "sell" strike signal)
called strike 3, whatever fancy thing you can come up with.

for swinging strikes 1 and 2, point to the side, right side for right handed batters, left side for lefty hitters. make sure nothing's happening on the bases when you turn.

in either case, if there's a runner stealing, just extend your right arm to the side while facing the pitcher so you can get into position wherever you need to be.

for swinging strike 3, if you have a D3K, yell out 'no catch' and give the safe signal while things go down. Otherwise, i like to pause for a while, let the batter leave the circle, and casually hammer to signal the out.

a lot of MLB umps have gone to the hammer for called strikes but still retain the point for swinging strikes. I like it too since I find turning to the side on called strikes to be a P.I.T.A. whereas i'm way more relaxed on swinging strikes and can more easily turn to the side there...


and btw, can someone explain why you never see any baseball umpire manual that says to point to the side for a strike? I think in the old days, all strikes were hammers as well and umps made calls really really fast until Doug Harvey came around and got them all to slow down their calls...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bniu

you may want to try this, i find it works really really well and i wish softball would get off their high pedestal and take a look at it too:

For called strikes 1 and 2 as well as check swing strikes, continue to hammer as usual (i use this as a "sell" strike signal)
called strike 3, whatever fancy thing you can come up with.

for swinging strikes 1 and 2, point to the side, right side for right handed batters, left side for lefty hitters. make sure nothing's happening on the bases when you turn.

in either case, if there's a runner stealing, just extend your right arm to the side while facing the pitcher so you can get into position wherever you need to be.

for swinging strike 3, if you have a D3K, yell out 'no catch' and give the safe signal while things go down. Otherwise, i like to pause for a while, let the batter leave the circle, and casually hammer to signal the out.

a lot of MLB umps have gone to the hammer for called strikes but still retain the point for swinging strikes. I like it too since I find turning to the side on called strikes to be a P.I.T.A. whereas i'm way more relaxed on swinging strikes and can more easily turn to the side there...


and btw, can someone explain why you never see any baseball umpire manual that says to point to the side for a strike? I think in the old days, all strikes were hammers as well and umps made calls really really fast until Doug Harvey came around and got them all to slow down their calls...

I don't think it matters an iota how you call strikes, provided your timing is good enough to know that something odd isn't going to happen when you turn your head to the side.

For most young umpires, this is a problem. I find it useful to teach the hammer to young umpires for this reason. As they get experience and develop solid timing and awareness, then they can feel free to do whatever they want.