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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 06:53am
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Fed Courtesy Runner

Another question at our meeting tonight.

In the 5th inning, a #5 pinch hits for the catcher's spot in the lineup. After reaching base, the OC wants to bring in his courtesy runner for #5.

What do you do?

I would have allowed it. To me, the current catcher is on first base, simply because he has REPLACED the spot in the lineup. Others said that he couldn't have a courtesy runner because he wasn't the catcher on record.

If you have any cites to back either stance, please give it. I couldn't find anything specific enough in the Case Book or Rules to give either side any merit.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 07:45am
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Not allowed. A CR is permitted only for the F2 who finished the previous inning. To allow otherwise would be to allow a projected substitution: the sub's batting for F2 does not entail that he will be F2 in the next half inning.

This case is not identical, but the principle is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 Case Book
3.1.1 SITUATION N: Smith is the catcher and Jones is the left fielder as their
team leaves the field to come to bat. Their coach tells U1 that Smith will go to left
field and Jones will go in as catcher when the team returns to defense. The coach
is really wishing to make the change so that the slower Jones can have a courtesy
runner if he gets on base in the half-inning. RULING: The umpire shall not
allow a projected substitution. Therefore, a courtesy runner would only be
allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to
bat
. (Courtesy Runner Rules)
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 08:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Not allowed. A CR is permitted only for the F2 who finished the previous inning. To allow otherwise would be to allow a projected substitution: the sub's batting for F2 does not entail that he will be F2 in the next half inning.

This case is not identical, but the principle is the same.
I disagree. This isn't a projected substitution... it IS a substitution. The coach removed the catcher from the game and placed another player in his roster spot. I could be wrong, but the new player is now the catcher.

If the coach came and said "I'm subbing my catcher, but #12 will be the catcher next inning. I want to use a CR for #12," I wouldn't allow it.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
I disagree. This isn't a projected substitution... it IS a substitution. The coach removed the catcher from the game and placed another player in his roster spot. I could be wrong, but the new player is now the catcher.

If the coach came and said "I'm subbing my catcher, but #12 will be the catcher next inning. I want to use a CR for #12," I wouldn't allow it.
There's no catcher when they're batting. Read the case play: a CR is permitted only for the player who caught the previous half inning, not for his lineup spot.

The other thing to remember is that nothing prevents the coach from moving all the players around in the next half inning. The sub for the catcher might pitch, and the previous pitcher could come in to catch. Any player can play (almost) any position; what can't change is that player's spot in the lineup.

I think that the bolded part of the case play I posted is pretty clear, and pretty clearly applies to this case.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
I I could be wrong,

You are wrong.

If the coach wants a CR, he can re-enter the catcher (if otherwise allowed) and then have a CR for the catcher.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 08:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
There's no catcher when they're batting. Read the case play: a CR is permitted only for the player who caught the previous half inning, not for his lineup spot.

I think that the bolded part of the case play I posted is pretty clear, and pretty clearly applies to this case.
You're right. It does. I skipped it when I saw your "projected sub" line. I don't see it as a projected sub, but a simple sub. The bolded part does put it in black and white.

I have learned my lesson.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
You are wrong.

If the coach wants a CR, he can re-enter the catcher (if otherwise allowed) and then have a CR for the catcher.
Bob are you saying that there's a legal alternative? Namely:

1. Bat a sub for F2.
2. If he reaches base, re-enter F2.
3. Put a CR on for F2, who's now on base.

That costs the coach only the reentry privilege for F2, so he could do it just once in a game.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Bob are you saying that there's a legal alternative? Namely:

1. Bat a sub for F2.
2. If he reaches base, re-enter F2.
3. Put a CR on for F2, who's now on base.

That costs the coach only the reentry privilege for F2, so he could do it just once in a game.
Yes.

There's a specific interp in one of the past years to that effect.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 06:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
but the new player is now the catcher.

Not necessarily...he simply subbed for the player who happened to be catching last 1/2 inning...but just because he came in for the starting catcher doesn't mean he has to play catcher on defense when the sub enters the game...nor does the reentering "catcher" have to go back to catcher.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 09:55pm
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I would not allow a CR in this situation. If the coach wanted the CR, he should've sent the previous 1/2 inning's catcher to the plate, F2 reaches, then CR. Can't do both. mbyron cited the rule.
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Old Wed Feb 17, 2010, 11:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes.

There's a specific interp in one of the past years to that effect.
Well let's have it...
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Old Thu Feb 18, 2010, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Well let's have it...
2005 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretation

SITUATION 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team Aís catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home teamís coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner. (Speed-Up Rules)
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Old Thu Feb 18, 2010, 01:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleLeagueBob View Post
2005 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretation

SITUATION 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team Aís catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home teamís coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner. (Speed-Up Rules)
For anyone who feels that this strategy is an abuse of the CR rules, remember that a team can do this just once in a game, since it exhausts the catcher's reentry privilege.
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Old Thu Feb 18, 2010, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleLeagueBob View Post
2005 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretation

SITUATION 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team Aís catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home teamís coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner. (Speed-Up Rules)
This same rule, albeit without the FED interp, that NAIA uses.
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