Fed Sub Situation

[yawetag]

This situation came up during our training class tonight. The group was mixed on how to handle it, so I'm bringing it here. The situation was in softball, but it can easily happen in baseball.

Bottom of the 7th, home team down by a few runs. Bases loaded, two outs. OC comes out and says, "I'm bringing in #20 Jones for #30 Smith." The umpire repeats it back, gets an affirmation, then repeats the sub to defense scorekeeper. #20 comes up to bat and hits a single, scoring two.

Before the next hitter enters the box, OC comes out to the umpire: "Blue, I made a mistake. #20 Jones was supposed to be hitting for #10 Washington, whose spot was just up." The umpire looks at his lineup and sees, in order:
10 - Washington
12 - White
30 - Smith -- 20 Jones
...

What do you do?

Part of the room said that the coach OBVIOUSLY meant the sub was for the current batter. Personally, I don't care what the coach's intent was -- that's not my job. He made a legal substitution for a player; granted, the player wasn't batting, running, or in the field, but it's still a legal substitution. That player then batted out of order. Call the batter out, no runs scored, game over.

[mbyron]

Issue 1: is S20 a legal substitute? From the sitch, I'd say yes. If S20 had been an illegal substitute, 3-1-1 specifically says that the penalty for illegal substitution supersedes the penalty for BOO.

Issue 2: which player has S20 subbed for? I'm not going to allow the coach's misinformation to create a BOO situation. Instead, S20 will legally substitute for the current spot in the lineup, based on the provisions of 3-1-1. In effect, I'll treat a misreported sub as an unreported sub. I think this is justified because reporting isn't mandatory anyway.

So I'm not going with BOO here, no matter what. And I can't see how the offense gained any advantage from their mistake. If I did, I might still allow the substitution but penalize the unsporting behavior of the coach (restrict or eject).

[ozzy6900]

#20's at bat is complete, the offense cannot say anything anymore. If there is anything to say, it is the defense who has to speak up now.

[dash_riprock]

Subbing (pinch hitting) for a player who's spot in the lineup is two hitters away is a projected substitute - not allowed. I'd fix it with an eraser. No penalty.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Subbing (pinch hitting) for a player who's spot in the lineup is two hitters away is a projected substitute - not allowed. I'd fix it with an eraser. No penalty.

You're saying a coach can't come to you while they're at bat and say he's replacing a player in his lineup, even if that player isn't at bat or on base?

3-1-1: "ln any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called."

[cviverito]

First off - I am thinking the umpire will notice that the spot being subbed for was #10 & not #30, unless #'s are not listed. But that really doesn't matter - the sub is for the spot in the batting order, not laundry. He can say #20 is batting for Babe Ruth and my concern will be for which spot in the line up he is referring, and if the player entering is a legal sub. In the case of the OP, if the sub is designated for anything other than the next spot due up I will not allow the coaches request. Same goes if the sub he is trying to enter is not a legal sub.

If this OP happens as written I have nothing but a funny look on my face. I tell the coach no worries...the sub was for that particular spot in the line up. Who ever was there before has either 1 re-entry (if it was a starter and the 1st time subbed for) or no re-entry (2d time being subbed or a sub for a sub).

[bbsbvb83]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Subbing (pinch hitting) for a player who's spot in the lineup is two hitters away is a projected substitute - not allowed. I'd fix it with an eraser. No penalty.

I do not see this as a projected substitution. My idea of a projected substitution is in bold below:

Coach: "Blue, I'm sending # 1 in to pinch run for # 2 at second base. # 2 will re-enter."

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by cviverito

First off - I am thinking the umpire will notice that the spot being subbed for was #10 & not #30, unless #'s are not listed.

I couldn't tell you what batter is next in the lineup. I certainly don't check with each batter. That job is left to the DC, not me.

If a coach comes to me and makes a lineup change, I'm verifying the player coming in is eligible to enter in that spot, then allowing it. Whether it's the next batter or not, I don't care.

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

I do not see this as a projected substitution. My idea of a projected substitution is in bold below:

Coach: "Blue, I'm sending # 1 in to pinch run for # 2 at second base. # 2 will re-enter."

That's my idea, too. I've also heard (when on offense), "Blue, I'm subbing in these people to the first three spots coming up (info given). If any of them get on base, I'm putting in this person to the fourth spot."

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by yawetag

You're saying a coach can't come to you while they're at bat and say he's replacing a player in his lineup, even if that player isn't at bat or on base?

Yes. I would tell the coach to let me know of the substitution when it occurs. The prohibition on projected substitutes is absolute.

Quote by bbsbvb83:

I do not see this as a projected substitution. My idea of a projected substitution is in bold below:

Coach: "Blue, I'm sending # 1 in to pinch run for # 2 at second base. # 2 will re-enter."

That certainly is a projected substitution, but there are others.

First of all, NAMES are dispositive with respect to the batting order (and, by inference, substitutions). Substitutes don't "go into the 6-hole" or "go in to catch," they replace another player. In the OP, the coach said "Jones batting for Smith, " but Smith's spot was 2 spots removed from the position currently at bat. If you accept the (projected) substitution, and Jones now comes to bat, now you DO have a BOO mess.

If you call it a projected substitution, it becomes an erasure because it was not allowed to be made - it never happened - and you just put the proper batter up.

When Jones entered the batter's box, he became an unannounced (legal) sub for whomever was due up.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by yawetag

You're saying a coach can't come to you while they're at bat and say he's replacing a player in his lineup, even if that player isn't at bat or on base?

3-1-1: "ln any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called."

Dash is right (even I missed that one) and you are not reading the whole rule:

3-1-1:
SECTION 1 SUBSTITUTING
ART. 1 ... After the umpire has received the official lineup card prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,
b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate,
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has
replaced, or
d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box.
PENALTY: If the starting pitcher does not face one batter, he may play another position, but not return to pitch.
(there is more 3-1-1 but I do not want to waste space)

If you are going to post the rule on this board in argument to another poster, make sure you read the rule first!

[bbsbvb83]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Dash is right (even I missed that one) and you are not reading the whole rule:

3-1-1:
SECTION 1 SUBSTITUTING
ART. 1 ... After the umpire has received the official lineup card prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,
b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate,
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has
replaced, or
d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box.
PENALTY: If the starting pitcher does not face one batter, he may play another position, but not return to pitch.
(there is more 3-1-1 but I do not want to waste space)

If you are going to post the rule on this board in argument to another poster, make sure you read the rule first!

I dont really think anyone is saying projected substitutions are allowed. I think the issue is the definition of projected substitution. I my opinion the OP is not a projected sub, and I agree with yawetag's decision. Unfortunately, I can find no explanation in either the rules book or case book as to what situations would actually constitute a projected sub.

[yawetag]

My argument is that substituting a player several spots down the lineup isn't a projected substitute. It's a straight substitute. The coach is replacing a player with another player. There are no "ifs, ands, or buts" in the substitution. The new player is legally in the game. If he's taken out, then he's done for the day.

projection: A forecast or prognosis obtained by extrapolation

I'm certainly not talking about a situation where the coach says, "Blue, Jones is up 4th this inning. If he comes up to bat, then I'm going to have Smith bat for him." That's definitely a projected substitute.

However, if he comes to me and says, "Blue, I've got Smith coming in for Jones," I'll pull out my lineup card and say, "OK, Coach, that's Smith in for Jones in the 6-spot. Is that correct?" He'll say it is, I'll announce it to the other dugout, and the change is legal. If Smith never comes to bat and Jones takes the field, then Smith is done for the day.

If you can find me a good definition or case play of "projected substitute" in the Rules or Case Book that goes against the ability for a coach to directly substitute any player when the ball is dead, then I'll change my opinion on it. However, I've found nothing that defines my situation as a projected sub.

[dash_riprock]

So in the OP, after Jones singles, the D coach comes out and wants BOO. What do you tell him?

[bbsbvb83]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

So in the OP, after Jones singles, the D coach comes out and wants BOO. What do you tell him?

Assuming D coach brings it to the attention of the umpire before the next pitch (or attempted play, intentional base on balls, etc.): Washington is declared out, runs scored as a result of Jones' at bat are erased, game is over.

[Tim C]

I am amazed by how anal some people are:

"My argument is that substituting a player several spots down the lineup isn't a projected substitute."

I can only shake my head.

A projected substitute is ANY substitution that is attempting to made to anyone than a current hitter, runner or defensive substitution.

Notice I said: ANY

Coach passes you between innings and says: "Hey Tee, #17 is hitting for the second guy up this inning."

Ump Tee: "Hey Jack, just tell me when it is happening we can't do projected changes."

The OP simply means that the batter hit for the player he hit for . . . not someone else down the order.

This thread is an example of what happens on these forums:

A question is asked. It is answered CORRECTLY by a number of real experienced people.

Then we have a guy that won't accept the correct answer.

Again I just, sadly, shake my head BUT count the starts you don't work in my area of the country.

T