MLB umpire says that you can balk with a dead ball!

[Boone]

hey jim! you can stand next to me and that retired MLB guy. Now you don't have to be alone!

[Bfair]

Let's take this play:

After a foul ball the PU has provided new ball to pitcher.
Pitcher is straddling rubber, but appears to be on the rubber to the PU---who calls play.

At the moment the PU calls play, F1 quickly turns and fires to F3 who puts tag on the runner before his return to 1B.

You are the BU...........What's your call?
Is R1 out, or do you correct PU's error of improperly putting the ball in play?


Freix

[His High Holiness]

Gentleman; Gentleman; Gentleman;

One of the problems with debating plays that never occur in MLB is that you can never get a honest to God authorized opinion.

However, in this case, we have a similar situation from a real MLB game to go on. I don't remember the teams or the umpires, so I trust that someone else will fill in the details:

The side was reitred and the defense went out to take their positions. (It was in Boston, I believe. ) Due to the long wait between innings to accomodate television, the left fielder entered the bullpen to visit with the pitchers. The PU did not see that there were only eight men on the field and neither did the pitcher. The PU called "play" and the batter promply hit the ball off of the left field wall. This woke up the left fielder in the bull pen and he came running out on the field and picked up the ball as the BR pulled in to second with a double.

Ruling:

Since the PU illegally put the ball into play with only eight men on the field, the double was canceled, and we had a do over. All pitches that inning (if any) prior to the hit were canceled as well.

BTW, I don't know whether the offensive manager had to be ejected or not.

This MLB ruling indicates that if the ball is illegally put in play by the umpire, all subsequent action is nullified until the ball is LEGALLY put in play.

Peter

[GarthB]

Jim:

Absent an unamed, retired umpire who would never had seen such a play, you will most likely remain a lone voice. I exclude Boone from your company, because he seems to think the ball is live, while you understand it is dead, but would call a balk anyway.

In the past you have been a devotee of J/R and JEA. What say they about this?

Reverse your reasoning. Show me the rule that allows the call of a balk during a dead ball and you will have convert.

GB

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
This MLB ruling indicates that if the ball is illegally put in play by the umpire, all subsequent action is nullified until the ball is LEGALLY put in play.

Peter

No, that ruling indicates that any PLAY is nullified. Except for the purposes of 7.10, a balk is not a play.

There's a difference between an umpire who errs by not checking to see how many players are in fair territory before declaring play live, and an umpire who is out-and-out deceived by a pitcher (using illegal tactics) into putting the ball in play. The former is the umpire's fault and requires a do-over. The latter is a balk.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by GarthB
Jim:

Reverse your reasoning. Show me the rule that allows the call of a balk during a dead ball and you will have convert.

GB

Garth,

I cannot show you a rule that allows a balk during a dead ball any more than you can show me a rule that disallows a balk during a dead ball.

Not to seem offensive, but I've always considered this situation to be plain common sense. The pitcher straddled the rubber without the ball, and in doing so he deceived the runners and the umpire. I just believe that should always be a balk, live or dead.

[GarthB]

Lonesome:

A problem with your position, Jim is that you cannot limit it to one play unless you attempt to pervert 9.01(c) You are saying that pitchers can balk during a dead ball.

Takes Friex's example. That, by your definition, would have to be called a balk. We would be limited only by our imagination. What wondrous balks we could call with the ball out of play.

I would rather be limited by rule and practice (other than Little League, of course). I have to agree with Peter. You will never see a deadball balk called by a legitimate ML umpire, and for very good reason.

GB

[GarthB]

"Not to seem offensive, but I've always considered this situation to be plain common sense.

Me, too. Common sense dictates that we follow the requirments for a live ball. Common sense dictates that balks are not called during a dead ball. I'm not offended by common sense, just amused by how it is interpreted at times.

[bluezebra]

"the chickanery"

Was a chicken involved in the "chicanery"? Or maybe calling a balk on a dead ball is a chicken.... call?

Bob

[Tim C]

The balk cannot be called (deceived or not PU) because the ball was NEVER legally in play.

When the PU finds out that he FU'd by not doing his job and knowing where the ball was it is not a balk it is, in all reality, a "do over".

I do not like rewarding the "dumb" team but I think this is pretty clear (sorry Jim) that the ball was never legally in play.

IF we start an inning and do not notice that the defense does not have a right fielder (he is in the portapotty). We are directed to do a "do over" since all eight defenders and catcher where not in the prescribed postions on the field.

When the umpire declares play (illegally) we are in the exact same position.

No call, no balk, no out!

"Do Over"

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by GarthB
Lonesome:

A problem with your position, Jim is that you cannot limit it to one play unless you attempt to pervert 9.01(c) You are saying that pitchers can balk during a dead ball.

Takes Friex's example. That, by your definition, would have to be called a balk. We would be limited only by our imagination. What wondrous balks we could call with the ball out of play.

I would rather be limited by rule and practice (other than Little League, of course). I have to agree with Peter. You will never see a deadball balk called by a legitimate ML umpire, and for very good reason.

GB

Huh? Read Freix's situation again. There's no balk there. How are you misunderstanding me that I would think Freix's situation is a balk?

Fact is, this can only occur in one situation - when the pitcher straddles or makes contact with the rubber while not in possession of the ball. There's no perversion of 9.01(c). It's covered quite adequately in 8.05. It's a balk because it's a balk. It has nothing to do with live versus dead. Only the play is nullified because the ball was not put into play legally. The balk call remains.

[insatty]

Jim Porter's argument is very persuasive. Just like in football where we have dead-ball fouls, the deception described here deserves a penalty. No football official advances unless he masters dead-ball officiating. And any baseball official would penalize a player that punches a runner during a dead ball. A player or team that deceives the umpire is cheating, which is ground for ejection. An umpire, therefore, should penalize cheating, whether the ball is live or dead.

[Bfair]

Jim, you have make an assumption that the umpires know their rules and how to perform their jobs. The rules expect that. Few rules are written based on correcting umpire errors.

So, in the instance of the a hidden ball trick during a dead ball situation, the offense should be at ZERO liability of being putout. The defense has gained NO ADVANTAGE with their deception. The ball is dead!!!

Still, the defense deceives the PU into putting the ball in play.
Now, your knowledgeable officials realize the ball did not meet the requirement of being on the rubber with the pitcher to legally put the ball in play. Would you call a balk if the centerfielder threw the ball to F6 to retire R2 leading off? What if F9 had the ball and threw it to his mistress in rightfield? Where do you draw the line, Jim, on when you consider the ball in play and not in play merely because a PU calls "play?" The rule shows the limit---the pitcher must have the ball on while on the rubber. Don't add your new limitations beyond those provided by the rules.

This ball was never in play: the offense was never at risk.
While I will strongly side with you in not giving the offending team the benefit of the doubt, there is no doubt here. They could not retire a runner with a dead ball.

You are attempting to penalize for your dislike of a play no differently than you advocate to penalize for Type B obstruction---despite the rule's penalty that says the umpire should "nullify" the act of the obstruction. You want to penalize more than what the rules allow us to, Jim, because you don't like the act. That's not good umpiring---that's making up rules as you play to meet your own standards.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Rog]

What part of this rule am I missing???
5.02
After the umpire calls “Play” the ball is alive and in play and remains alive and in play until for legal cause, or at the umpire’s call of “Time” suspending play, the ball becomes dead. While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field.)

In particular:
"While the ball is dead no player may be put out".....

[Rich]

....when a "live ball" is put in play when there are only eight fielders on the field? What do we do then?

A live ball requires certain things -- the umpire claiming it is a live ball is a necessary BUT NOT SUFFICIENT condition.

I can't imagine calling a balk on a dead ball. Hell, the defense/pitcher isn't required to do anything when the ball is dead. The runners have no obligation when the ball is dead, other than to return to their bases before the ball becomes alive.

There's no rule that says I can't umpire naked in the OBR, but methinks I wouldn't get through the plate conference without a problem.

Rich