MLB umpire says that you can balk with a dead ball!

[GarthB]

Jim:

R1, Ball is batted foul. Ball is thrown to F1 who is on the grass about ten feet from the mound. After rubbing up the new ball and still on the grass, he simulates his delivery. He's off the rubber. BALK, Jim calls.

The ball is dead. There is no balk.

There is no history to call a balk during a deadball. There is no ruling to call a balk during a deadball. There is no rule to call a balk during a deadball There is no practice, outside of Little League, to call a balk during a deadball.

The ump got faked out. Shame on the ump.

Sorry if some feel the need to punish the defense for deke-ing the ump, but they do so without the sanction of the rules, tradition, history, AO or OI.

I guess "common sense" justifies it.



[Edited by GarthB on Aug 6th, 2002 at 01:57 PM]

[Bfair]

Originally posted by insatty
Jim Porter's argument is very persuasive. Just like in football where we have dead-ball fouls, the deception described here deserves a penalty. No football official advances unless he masters dead-ball officiating. And any baseball official would penalize a player that punches a runner during a dead ball. A player or team that deceives the umpire is cheating, which is ground for ejection. An umpire, therefore, should penalize cheating, whether the ball is live or dead.

Hmmmm...................

Do you penalize in football during a dead ball for offsides?
Do you penalize in football during a dead ball for illegal procedure?
Do you penalize in football during a dead ball for too many men on the field?

I wouldn't compare this situation to a dead ball foul of punching or kicking someone.
Those acts have ramifications with them that damage the opponent.
Other acts have no ramifications to them.

Trying to put out a runner in baseball with a dead ball
just isn't going to happen with any knowledgeable umpire.
There is no possibility of damage to the opponents.



Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

insatty: "A player or team that deceives the umpire is cheating, which is ground for ejection. An umpire, therefore, should penalize cheating, whether the ball is live or dead.

Any umpire who falls for the hidden ball trick should be too ashamed and embarrassed to eject anyone. They didn't cheat. They screwed up in the implementation of a stupid play and faked an umpire. You feel the need to punish them for that?

Okay....I hear the offense purposely arranging a BOO during a dead ball. Amn I going to penalize them for that?

R3 tries to score on a deadball and claims he got there while the ball was live. I'm sending him back, but what penalty should I add?

I am there to see that neither side gets an advantage not intended by the rules. The rules do not call for calling a balk during a deadball. That would give the offense an advantage not intended. Simple. It's not rocket science. It's baseball and its common sense.

[insatty]

Yes, Freix. Offsides (encroachment in FED), illegal procedure (false start in FED and NCAA), and too many men on the field (illegal substitution in FED and NCAA) are dead-ball fouls. The analogy is inexcapable. Penalize the balk.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jim Porter


Except for the purposes of 7.10, a balk is not a play.

So, following a batting out of order situation F1 balks while attempting a pickoff at 1B. Jim Porter then upholds the defense's appeal of batting out of order because a balk is not a play.

I think you'd lose your protest and learn that a balk is a play.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

Okay

I surrender. Either common sense is not very common or, it its other meaning, it is too "common" indeed.

"Penalize the balk"

By all means, Mr. insatty, at your very next opportunity, please call a balk during a dead ball. But before you do, let me know where you're calling. This would be worth the plane fare.

GB

PS Do you really believe analogies bewteen football and baseball are "inescapable"? How about basketball and hockey? NASCAR and pole vaulting? Ooh, OOh, I've got it, soccer and anything else?

[Jim Porter]

One's argument is awfully weak when absurd situations are needed to prove one's point. Common sense should not need to be defended with third world situations.

Common sense dictates that if the pitcher takes the rubber without the ball with the explicit intent to deceive, it's a balk. Plain and simple. The rules do not address whether a balk can or cannot be called while play is dead. 8.05 covers it completely.

If you wanted to come up with third world scenarios, I can give you a whole bunch where play is live, the pitcher balks according to the letter of the rules, and no umpire worth his salt would make the call. But I see no need to enter into the ridiculous. Common sense does not require it.

[insatty]

You ought to surrender, Mr. Garth, because your missing the point. F1 mistakenly balks while the ball is dead, then you have nothing. F1 cheats while the ball is dead, then you may have something.

[GarthB]

Sorry Jim, too late to try to rise above third world plays. You have embraced one.

If now you want to say that you would only call a balk during a dead ball when you feel it merits it and not at other times, go ahead.

Again, I ask, why haven't you quoted one of normal relied upon sources to bail you out here. What say Messers. Roder and Jaska? How about JEA? Carl Childress? Anybody we can relate to outside of an unknown unemployed ML umpire?

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Bfair

So, following a batting out of order situation F1 balks while attempting a pickoff at 1B. Jim Porter then upholds the defense's appeal of batting out of order because a balk is not a play.

I think you'd lose your protest and learn that a balk is a play.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Freix,

You know, if you spent more time discussing the topic at hand rather than searching for the tiniest details to nitpick in another's post, you might actually be likeable.

"Except for the purposes of APPEALS, a balk is not a play."

Better?

Holy cow, you're a pill.

[GarthB]

"F1 cheats while the ball is dead, then you may have something."


Cheats? CHEATS CHEATS? He faked out an idiot umpire. That's cheating? Since when?

Again, how about the real cheating I posed to you? Intentional BOO about to happen, you know it. Ball is dead. What are you going to do about it? Ball is live, what are you going to do about it?

C'mon guy. There is no place in baseball...I repeat NO PLACE IN BASEBALL that you can cite for calling a balk during a deadball. None, nada, doesn't exist, nowhere, nohow.

Get that horse out of here, it's dead.

[Tim C]

Boy am I glad I'm outta this one!

[Bfair]

Originally posted by insatty
Yes, Freix. Offsides (encroachment in FED), illegal procedure (false start in FED and NCAA), and too many men on the field (illegal substitution in FED and NCAA) are dead-ball fouls. The analogy is inexcapable. Penalize the balk.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding............

Are you going to penalize the defense for too many men on the field when the ball is dead between plays and the players are changing?

Are you going to penalize the offense because a lineman crosses the line of scrimmage toward his opponent while running to the sideline?

Are you going to call illegal procedure on that same lineman running to his sideline crossing the of scrimmage?

Insatty, I think that is more the point I was attempting to achieve.
When they are not violating the opponents rights, then do you call penalties?

In the situation with a hidden ball trick during a dead ball, what rights have been violated? If the ball is not legally put in play, then it's not a live ball. The opponent's rights could not have been violated.

Better yet, the offense is ready to snap the ball, but snaps it just after the play clock expires. The QB drops back and the center has bear hug on the middle linebacker coming up the middle (protecting his QB). Do you call holding, or merely a play clock violation? Afterall, the center held on the play, correct? Still, the ball was dead: it was not legally put into play. The defense was not put at a disadvantage due to the hold. Do you choose the more severe penalty because you don't like holding in your games, or do you follow your rules?

Let's compare apples to apples if we are trying to compare the sports.......


Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

Tee:

I'm joining you. It's beginning to remind me of the old Dorothy Parkerism, "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think."

GB

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by GarthB
Sorry Jim, too late to try to rise above third world plays. You have embraced one.

If now you want to say that you would only call a balk during a dead ball when you feel it merits it and not at other times, go ahead.

Again, I ask, why haven't you quoted one of normal relied upon sources to bail you out here. What say Messers. Roder and Jaska? How about JEA? Carl Childress? Anybody we can relate to outside of an unknown unemployed ML umpire?

J/R does not say a balk cannot be called during a dead ball. Their book agrees with me.

JEA does not say a balk cannot be called during a dead ball. His book agrees with me.

As far as Carl, you'd have to ask him yourself. I don't speak with him much anymore since he's been so busy.

I have embraced no third world plays. In my experience, the balk on the hidden ball trick is more common than the advantageous fourth out.

But, finally, you guys wonder why I make such an exception during a dead ball in the case of this one situation. My answer is simple: Because the casebook comment says so.

However, certain specifics should be borne in mind:
(a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk.

Now, tell me, why on Earth would the casebook comment addrsess this point separately if not to separate it from all other balks? I say because, unlike all other balks, it can occur during a dead ball.

[Edited by Jim Porter on Aug 6th, 2002 at 02:34 PM]