Neighborhood plays

[Tim C]

Gold:

I understand from where you are coming. I don't agree, but I understand.

The Internet has taught me that, like most things, there are two types of umpires.

There are umpires that call by what they call the intent, spirit and common usage of the game.

There are another set of umpires that think that if the game is not called by "the letter" of the rule the umpire is cheating.

I doubt if these groups will ever find a common ground.

David Casimer is a proponent of "not cheating". Dave feels that if an umpire calls a "neighborhood play" or "selects" to not call a balk that he has actually cheated the participants in the game.

Most of us that have many years of experience (and that is many years not one year many times) think we "understand" the game well enough and are informed enough to keep control of our games, give the players a fair and equal basis of the rules and never take one side over the other.

We like to look "down" on the "letter of the rule guys" becasue we have a false sense of "knowing what it really takes to be an umpire."

I contend that ALL umpires fit the mode of "selective" enforcement. Some just do it a little more widely than others.

We have blathered on-and-on about this difference and we will never find a common ground.

I can only say the following:

IF you want to continue to advance upwards in your local association or move into the highest quality ball you will need to understand the need to view the game from a persepctive much more closely to that of the "pragmatic" umpire rather than where you are today.

Gold, compromise is important in all types of business and umpiring is no difference.

I admire your strength to tilt against the windmill but if you want to move up you'll need to review, at times, how strongly you want to continue this committment to "calling by the rules."

[GarthB]

Sparky answers:
1.) I call a strike, if I think it's a strike.
You didn't answer the question, Sparky. What you "think" isn't the rule book answer. Shame.

2.) As perfect as humanly possible.
What a cop out. Yes or no?

3.) Use my bst judgement from the position I am located.
So then you make a call without realling seeing a tag. Shame.

4.) Runner establishes his own baseline. There is three foot given on an attempt to avoid a tag. If by my judgement the runner runs more than 3 feet away from the fielder to avoid a tag . . . the runner is out. I use my best judgement.
That's not what the rule book says, Sprarky. How come you don't call it like the rule book?

5.) The possibility of the ball and player arriving at the EXACT, PRECISE same time is near impossible. I make the call to the best of my ability.
You must have super human vision, Sparky. Time gaps shorter than those discernable by the human eye happen all the time. What do you do? Hint: calling to the best of your ability is a copout not covered in the rule book.

6.) If a coach leaves his spot to question a call . . . during our meeting I'll ask him to call Time out on the next question before he comes to me. If he disobeys my request . . . I'll then send him to the dugout for the rest of the game.

BZZZZZZZZZT. Sorry Sparky. Ever read 9.02(a)comment?

7.) Pretty much the same thing. I warn him not to repeat the action. I'll check the ball. If in my judgement he intentionally distorted the ball by the action . . . he's ejected.

You have to be kidding. A pitcher receives the ball from the outfield, wipes the crud off on his shirt and you want to check the ball? Really? Every time?

Ever hear of OOO?

Sorry, Sparky. Apparently you don't call by the rules. By your own standard, you must be a hypocrite. Or maybe you're new and just don't realize that the learning process continues.

Hope you stick with it, Sparky. Work, read, listen and learn. You'll make it.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 09:39 AM]

[kylejt]

What would be the umpires story if a manager came out to question a neighborhood play?

Manager: Blue, he missed the bag by two feet.

U2: But the play was made long before your runner got there.

Manager: So you're saying that F4 doesn't actually have to touch to bag to record the out?

U2: Nope, just close enough


PROTEST!

Guys, I'm trying to understand the old school of thought, I just need to know how to respond, as an umpire, to the neighborhood play call. Logic tells me the manager could protest, and win, this call every time.

Plus, at what level do you start calling it? And how close is close enough?

Kyle

[GarthB]

First of all, I don't know of any umpire this side of Safeco Field that would call an out if the defense missed the bag by two feet. I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone ever suggested that in this thread.

Argument by exaggeration doesn't carry much weight.

But let's continue with your situation.

Manager: Blue, he missed the bag.

Ump: I've got an out there, coach.

Manager: But didn't you see him miss the bag?

Ump: It was close coach, but I saw the play, and the runner is out.

Manager: Is this one of those "neighborhood plays?"

Ump: Coach the runner is out on the play and he'll be out on that play when you run it, too.

Manager: But...

Ump: Thats all the questions coach, we're gonna play now, you need to get off the field.


All of this will happen, of course, only if the coach is an absolute idiot or has limited experience, or if the umpire tried to implement this call in a level that neither understands it or needs it.

Brat ball, anything under 13 years old, needs to have a good touch of the bag. Those kids are still being introduced to the fundamentals and the danger of the slide at second is minimal compared to the oldsters.

Freshman ball and above, the neighborhood play is as much a safety issue as anything else.

But, unlike your exaggeration, in calling the neighborhood play experienced umpires will require that the defender be at least on the same block.

Last night during the Mariners game, the neighborhood play or phantom tag was given with F6 about a foot behind the bag and on the move. Personally, I expect the defender to be a bit closer than that, but I don't carry a tape measure. It comes from experience. It's like the old saying goes, "I know it when I see it."





[Edited by GarthB on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 12:29 PM]

[greymule]

Don't we all make adjustments to the literal, written rules at every level we do? Do we call the literal strike zone at every level? (Does anyone want us to?) Even within the same game, don't we call certain pitches depending on the situation?

Don't we all agree that a superhuman, perfect, literal umpire would quickly be run out of town? Playing under him would be like serving under a military officer who did everything exactly by the book. The system would collapse.

Perhaps it has something to do with the smoothness of the fielders' execution. If F6 drags his foot on making the relay and maybe doesn't scrape the bag, that's an out. Has anyone ever really had an argument on that play? But if F6 mistimes F4's throw and is obviously across the bag when he catches it, that's not an out.

I think of it less as "neighborhood" and more as "benefit of the doubt." I assume the fielder touched the bag unless it's obvious that he didn't. Same with a runner leaving too soon or missing a bag. It has to be obvious. Not necessarily blatant, but definite.

Others may have a different philosophy. All I can say is that mine has worked, for me, for a long time.

[GarthB]

I think that the differences we are experiencing here are primarily due to the level of ball being called, the experience of the umpire and his degree of success.

I have yet to see a successful Varsity or higher umpire with five or more years experience fail to give the out on the neighborhood play. I suppose it's done someplace, but I would have to think that at least one of three criteria I have set out: success, experience, level of ball, hasn't been met.

Oh wait, I remember a diehard from McGriff's who would never give that out: Yaworski. As my grandfather would say, the exception proves the rule.

[kylejt]

Garth,

This is exactly why some managers have a problem with umpires. I work both sides of the fence. I've only been umpiring for two years, so I know I have a lot to learn still. But if I, as a manager, ask U2 if F4 tagged the bag, and U2 says "I have an out there coach", I can only assume that a) U2 didn't see the play, or b) U2 isn't going to answer me today. Either way I've got a lesser opinion of that umpire from now on. I know, some umpires don't care what managers think of them, but I do. I'm still trying to improve, and part of that is going up through the ranks.

It's frustrating to get that kind of an answer to a yes or no question. I know, as an umpire, and rational person, I couldn't give that answer yet. Maybe that will come with time.

Again, I ask my fellow, more experienced brothers, how close is close enough? 6 inches, 12 inches? I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays.

Kyle

[GarthB]

I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays.

Please re-read my post. At the level you are currently working DO NOT make the call. Those kids don't need it and those coaches don't understand it. I have said all along this is level and experience related.

When you do start the Varsity games the coaches will understand it, the action will call for it and you won't get accused of not seeing the play.

Also, as I have said, the requirements are individual. I know it when I see it. You will, too. You will know when they are close enough and when they are not. Don't worry so much about this, it is not brain surgery. Nobody is going to die if you screw up while you're learning.

Personally, the proximity is related to the quality of the play and speed of the play. A quick catch and release made with a "tag" LESS than a foot from the bag (8-10 inches) will get the out, whereas a slow moving F6 six inches off may not.

[kylejt]

Garth,

Perfect explaination, thank you.

Kyle

[Gold_Spark]

Were asked to set me up. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm a moron. The only COPOUT is the way you tried to stick my own words against me and failed.

The point of the matter is . . . I DO NOT DELIBERATELY ignore the existance of a rule. I'll admit to you right here and now that I do not know all of the rules and I don't claim to. But to the best of my ability . . . I enforce them.

Your attempt to "show me up" would be pathetic even if you WOULDN'T have taken it to the extreme.

Believe what you want. I've called for six years and besides the casual out/safe bang-bang play . . . have never had any complaints on the manner in which I umpire. I think out of EXPERIENCE . . . I'll stick with what's working for me.

If the "Umpiring Gods" of this forum don't like my input . . . I'll refrain from posting. But all that I've gotten since I've been here is flack from a bunch of wannabes who claim to be superior to be simplistic views. I thought this was an OPEN forum?

I guess that's one I DID miss.

[Gold_Spark]

Thanks for pointing out my spelling errors.

THAT really makes you look smart.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by kylejt

Garth,

This is exactly why some managers have a problem with umpires. I work both sides of the fence. I've only been umpiring for two years, so I know I have a lot to learn still. But if I, as a manager, ask U2 if F4 tagged the bag, and U2 says "I have an out there coach", I can only assume that a) U2 didn't see the play, or b) U2 isn't going to answer me today. Either way I've got a lesser opinion of that umpire from now on. I know, some umpires don't care what managers think of them, but I do. I'm still trying to improve, and part of that is going up through the ranks.

It's frustrating to get that kind of an answer to a yes or no question. I know, as an umpire, and rational person, I couldn't give that answer yet. Maybe that will come with time.

Again, I ask my fellow, more experienced brothers, how close is close enough? 6 inches, 12 inches? I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays.

Kyle,

As Garth says you need to know what level of ball you are doing. What I recommend although it could be embarrassing or painful is to call the game as you want and learn through experience until you get to a comfort level. It's very difficult to change one's style simply to change it.

In this thread I gave an example of how I learned. Experience comes through time and there's no better learning experience than the game itself.

Also, seek out a mentor that's been there before

All I can say is that I call a game different than when I started. Do I cheat the teams? - NO. Heck when I umpired LL I have called my own son out on strikes so I do not cheat

Also, you NEVER tell a coach "hey skip close enough" you simply say "Skip in my judgement he's out" that's it. You don't argue or give a thesis to a coach on judgement calls. You tell the coach that you saw it and it's time to play ball.

Currently at least that's what I gather from reading your post you feel uncomfortable calling the "neigborhood / phantom tag play" At the level you are umpiring it's probably best to have that philosophy but depending upon your umpiring goals, once you start moving up you will see the difference and "try it your way" and see what happens.

Once you start getting knocked around a bit you will learn and adapt your umpiring style if you want to continue your growth potential.

If your goal is simply to stay and the youth level (which is ok we all have different goals in life) then you do not have to change your style. It boils down to your own goals as an umpire.

Pete Booth

[Gold_Spark]

for my "commentary". I just came into this forum and started GIVING my opinions.

It's obvious there are a lot more "experienced" umpires posting here then me that do not really need my input.

I probably wouldn't either. I just thought it would be fun to discuss some rules.

Instead I've pretty much been ridiculed (use spell check for me GarthB) to death.

I think my "FED" background put me on the chop block early and nobody wanted to deal with me after that. Unless they had the opportunity to show me up or take a cheap shot.

That's fair. If I'm out of my league, I'll admit it.

Sorry for wasting your time.

[greymule]

You didn't waste anybody's time. The topic is worth discussion and worth revisiting once in a while even for experienced umps.

Sometimes posters take comments too personally and respond with personal attacks. I regret that element of these threads.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Gold_Spark

for my "commentary". I just came into this forum and started GIVING my opinions.

It's obvious there are a lot more "experienced" umpires posting here then me that do not really need my input.

I probably wouldn't either. I just thought it would be fun to discuss some rules.

Instead I've pretty much been ridiculed (use spell check for me GarthB) to death.

I think my "FED" background put me on the chop block early and nobody wanted to deal with me after that. Unless they had the opportunity to show me up or take a cheap shot.

That's fair. If I'm out of my league, I'll admit it.

Sorry for wasting your time.

Gold_Spark,

If you want to particpate on the net, IMO you need to develop a thick skin In addition, IMO you need to take responsibility for starting some of this. Here's your quote from early on in this thread.

think that's total crap. If you don't call the game by the rules . . . you're a hipocrite if you ever site a rule.

Unwritten rules? That's bologna regardless of how high the level of competition goes.

Now when you say what you did, IMO you opened up the floodgates

It's one thing to say "Hey guys / gals, I subscribe to the theory that F4/F6 have to TOUCH the base and I do not adhere to the concept of the phantom tag / neighborhhod play" is one thing but when you say

"If anyone calls the neighborhood / phantom tag play, then you are hipocrite" is a little strong so when you get the type of responses you got, in a way IMO you asked for it.

If you want to state your philosophy / opinion is one thing, but when you use words such as calling one a hypocrite if they don't follow your philosophy is another.

Remember it takes 2 to Tango

This subject matter was worth it.

Pete Booth