The death of the neighborhood play...

[PeteBooth]

Rich here is the flip side.

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

Guess what? Now the same people who were in favor of the call will now say
"What the heck is going on? The runner was out by a mile on a routine type play. why DO THE UMPIRES make F4/F6 touch the base when all is needed is to be in the "vicintiy" to avoid injury.

FWIW I now HATE replay even in Football. The replay rule was supposed to overturn OBVIOUS mistakes not replay every call a ZILLION times with different angles. Heck now-a-days you can go to the bathroom, get a drink and STILL a decision has not been rendered.

In a nutshell Replay along with "other things" has ruined the tradition of baseball.

You are correct though the NEIGHBORHOOD is dead at least in MLB and most likely division I college where games are shown on TV.

Pete Booth

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Rich here is the flip side.

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

Guess what? Now the same people who were in favor of the call will now say
"What the heck is going on? The runner was out by a mile on a routine type play. why DO THE UMPIRES make F4/F6 touch the base when all is needed is to be in the "vicintiy" to avoid injury.

Pete Booth

Watch the replays. 99% of the time they do touch the base already.

The neighborhood play has beem dead for years in MLB.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Watch the replays. 99% of the time they do touch the base already.

The neighborhood play has beem dead for years in MLB.

This is a reponse I received from a former MLB umpire regarding KF's interpretation of the neighborhood play


Carl,

You're both right, kind of. The so-called "neighborhood"or "in the vicinity" play evolved during the time I called ball. Originally, it wasn't called either of those names. It wasn't called anything. It was basically the calling of an out when the fielder pulled off the bag early to get the hell out of the way of the runner's spikes.

In a short time, the fielders never touched the bag at all. They just came close to the the back side as they were turning the play. Close then became a matter of interpretation for some umpires, 2 inches, 4 inches 10 inches, a foot and a half. This is when the nick names came about as in "he was in the neighborhood."

I don't think I saw a fielder actually touch second on a double play once in my last five years.

I have noticed, however, that since the merger, the practice of giving that play to the fielder has diminshed. It will take some time and some more retirements, but I think it will be gone completely in a few years.

Edited to add:

From what I've seen. I don't think it will take a few years. Just my opinion.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

This is a reponse I received from a former MLB umpire regarding KF's interpretation of the neighborhood play


Carl,

You're both right, kind of. The so-called "neighborhood"or "in the vicinity" play evolved during the time I called ball. Originally, it wasn't called either of those names. It wasn't called anything. It was basically the calling of an out when the fielder pulled off the bag early to get the hell out of the way of the runner's spikes.

In a short time, the fielders never touched the bag at all. They just came close to the the back side as they were turning the play. Close then became a matter of interpretation for some umpires, 2 inches, 4 inches 10 inches, a foot and a half. This is when the nick names came about as in "he was in the neighborhood."

I don't think I saw a fielder actually touch second on a double play once in my last five years.

I have noticed, however, that since the merger, the practice of giving that play to the fielder has diminshed. It will take some time and some more retirements, but I think it will be gone completely in a few years.

Edited to add:

From what I've seen. I don't think it will take a few years. Just my opinion.

Great stuff!

I'd say that it's a pleasure for me to declare that we're both right.

[SanDiegoSteve]

And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently) to get me to stop calling it. I make the player make the most of the play, and I thought that Aybar, by straddling the base, then pivoting to position his right leg on the backside of the base, had demonstrated enough "neighborhood." That's my opinion. I don't think I am "dead wrong" in any shape or form, just have a different, old school opinion.

[mbyron]

For me, it's not a question of old- or new-school. In my games, it's a question of safety.

All the games I work, with the exception of one league, use NFHS sliding rules. Given those rules, there is no safety-based justification for giving the neighborhood play. So I don't give it.

In the one men's league that uses pretty straight OBR, I give the neighborhood play, provided that the fielder touches the bag at some time close to when he has the ball.

For me, the neighborhood play is not intrinsically good for baseball. That is not to say it's intrinsically bad, just that it needs some other rationale to be called.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently) to get me to stop calling it. I make the player make the most of the play, and I thought that Aybar, by straddling the base, then pivoting to position his right leg on the backside of the base, had demonstrated enough "neighborhood." That's my opinion. I don't think I am "dead wrong" in any shape or form, just have a different, old school opinion.

No, you're not wrong; you're also right, like we determined. The fielder can be "near" the bag or make it "look good" and still be given the out.

... But I'm still making the fielder touch it at some point.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

... But I'm still making the fielder touch it at some point.

Hey, what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business!

[JJ]

[QUOTE=SanDiegoSteve;631702]And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently)[QUOTE]

We'll never forget you, Brent!

JJ

[JJ]

SanDiegoSteve..."And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently)"

We'll never forget you, Brent!

JJ

[DG]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

There are exceptions of course, but I will take a good catcher over a good F6 or F4 any day, and yet we allow them to be crashed and possibly lost for the season, or a career. Safety is no reason to give the neighborhood call, they can touch and get out of the way. When was last time one was lost for the season over a routine play at 2B?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by DG

There are exceptions of course, but I will take a good catcher over a good F6 or F4 any day, and yet we allow them to be crashed and possibly lost for the season, or a career. Safety is no reason to give the neighborhood call, they can touch and get out of the way. When was last time one was lost for the season over a routine play at 2B?

A good take out slide doesn't really take the fielder out, it makes him get nothing on the ball to first because he's trying to get out of the way via jump, step back, etc. There is never a collision the way we see at the plate. F4/F6 job on the play is to 1) catch and transfer, sometime touching the base 2) Get the hell out of the way 3) give the throw to first. On the takeout slide, you can't do 3 without doing 2 first, hence, no injuries.

Far different from the play at plate, where F2's responsibilities are 1) Catch 2) Block 3) Brace/Tag (different orgs. may teach 1 and 2 vice versa to eliminate the steamroll before the ball ever gets there, or dekeing the runner into slowing up).

[johnnyg08]

FWIW, the worst replay system right now is NCAA DI football. Games are way too long w/ many unnecessary reviews.

[PeteBooth]

F2 has equipment F4/F6 have no equipment and are exposed.

Also, your comparison is not a good one. We are talking about ROUTINE plays not Bang bang plays.

When a runner comes crashing into F2 for the most part the play is close or F2 is blocking his path.

You cannot compare a play at the plate where F2 is blocking the runners path to a ROUTINE play at second base.

Pete Booth

[GA Umpire]

I am not replying to any post on this.

I saw the video posted of the play in question. That was not a neighborhood play. His feet were about 6 inches from the base during the whole play. Not even close to a neighborhood play.

I will give it in situations when I am not sure if he touched the base or not. Such as, F6 drags his foot behind 2B and is close to the base. How can you dispute if he touched or not? The base isn't going to move if he just clips it.

I'll give that or if one of his feet comes within just a few millimeters of the base. Again, hard to tell if he touched it or not at regular speed. But, Aybar's feet were never close to 2B and that is the right call. That is not a neighborhood play at all.

I don't believe the neighborhood play is dead by no means. I just think the umpires need to make the players work a little more than that to earn it. Be a little more deceptive than that. The nose bleed section could tell he didn't touch the base or even come close.

At least be in the neighborhood, to get the neighborhood call.