The death of the neighborhood play...

[realistic]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If the bolded part of this post was part of the "neighborhood play," it would not be called the "neighborhood play." The "neighborhood" part refers specifically to not touching the base, hence, "in the neighborhood of the base, which was precisely where Aybar was residing at the time of the horrific call by Jerry Layne. Your definition of "neighborhood play" is faulty, and not the way it has been called since, well, always.

Sorry Steve, you are dead wrong this time. Neighborhood plays have the fielder touching the base at some point but generally not when in possession of the ball. Aybar stayed on the backside of the bag to stay away from the sliding runner. He never attempted to touch the base. Jerry Layne is a very good umpire and had every right to call it the way that he did because he would be castigated now if he called it the other way. He said that he fielder didn't touch the bag and he was substantiated proof that he was correct. If the fielder would have touched the bag at some point, he could have said that the fielder touched the bag.

It doesn't matter how anyone else would have called it in their respective levels, this happened in the ALCS and that is the way it should have been called. Go ask Joe Saunders of the Angels. He will tell you.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

It's all because Layne and others don't want to be made to look bad on replay, which IMO has done more harm than good for umpires in recent days.

Does that translate to "I don't have to get the call right"?

[PeteBooth]

Rich here is the flip side.

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

Guess what? Now the same people who were in favor of the call will now say
"What the heck is going on? The runner was out by a mile on a routine type play. why DO THE UMPIRES make F4/F6 touch the base when all is needed is to be in the "vicintiy" to avoid injury.

FWIW I now HATE replay even in Football. The replay rule was supposed to overturn OBVIOUS mistakes not replay every call a ZILLION times with different angles. Heck now-a-days you can go to the bathroom, get a drink and STILL a decision has not been rendered.

In a nutshell Replay along with "other things" has ruined the tradition of baseball.

You are correct though the NEIGHBORHOOD is dead at least in MLB and most likely division I college where games are shown on TV.

Pete Booth

[UMP 64]

I said this before, McCarver is an IDIOT! He ALWAYS talks as though he is always right, KNOWS what pitch is about to be thrown, and knows what is going to happen before it happens. I did look up his lifetime stats, and they were better than I had expected. Lifetime .272 batting, and played 21 years. He did face a lot of big name pitchers, but he is not a Hall of Famer.
He was probably a solid catcher/player, I just don't like his guessing like he knows before something happens.
My favorite was earlier this season, he quotes" boy, this catcher is really doing a good job (catching) of keeping the pitches out of the center of the plate"????
What the H*#$ ? I thought the pitcher pitched the ball. Every one knows all ML catchers do not set up with the glove in the middle of the plate. We teach this at 10 y/o.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Rich here is the flip side.

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

Guess what? Now the same people who were in favor of the call will now say
"What the heck is going on? The runner was out by a mile on a routine type play. why DO THE UMPIRES make F4/F6 touch the base when all is needed is to be in the "vicintiy" to avoid injury.

Pete Booth

Watch the replays. 99% of the time they do touch the base already.

The neighborhood play has beem dead for years in MLB.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Watch the replays. 99% of the time they do touch the base already.

The neighborhood play has beem dead for years in MLB.

This is a reponse I received from a former MLB umpire regarding KF's interpretation of the neighborhood play


Carl,

You're both right, kind of. The so-called "neighborhood"or "in the vicinity" play evolved during the time I called ball. Originally, it wasn't called either of those names. It wasn't called anything. It was basically the calling of an out when the fielder pulled off the bag early to get the hell out of the way of the runner's spikes.

In a short time, the fielders never touched the bag at all. They just came close to the the back side as they were turning the play. Close then became a matter of interpretation for some umpires, 2 inches, 4 inches 10 inches, a foot and a half. This is when the nick names came about as in "he was in the neighborhood."

I don't think I saw a fielder actually touch second on a double play once in my last five years.

I have noticed, however, that since the merger, the practice of giving that play to the fielder has diminshed. It will take some time and some more retirements, but I think it will be gone completely in a few years.

Edited to add:

From what I've seen. I don't think it will take a few years. Just my opinion.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

This is a reponse I received from a former MLB umpire regarding KF's interpretation of the neighborhood play


Carl,

You're both right, kind of. The so-called "neighborhood"or "in the vicinity" play evolved during the time I called ball. Originally, it wasn't called either of those names. It wasn't called anything. It was basically the calling of an out when the fielder pulled off the bag early to get the hell out of the way of the runner's spikes.

In a short time, the fielders never touched the bag at all. They just came close to the the back side as they were turning the play. Close then became a matter of interpretation for some umpires, 2 inches, 4 inches 10 inches, a foot and a half. This is when the nick names came about as in "he was in the neighborhood."

I don't think I saw a fielder actually touch second on a double play once in my last five years.

I have noticed, however, that since the merger, the practice of giving that play to the fielder has diminshed. It will take some time and some more retirements, but I think it will be gone completely in a few years.

Edited to add:

From what I've seen. I don't think it will take a few years. Just my opinion.

Great stuff!

I'd say that it's a pleasure for me to declare that we're both right.

[SanDiegoSteve]

And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently) to get me to stop calling it. I make the player make the most of the play, and I thought that Aybar, by straddling the base, then pivoting to position his right leg on the backside of the base, had demonstrated enough "neighborhood." That's my opinion. I don't think I am "dead wrong" in any shape or form, just have a different, old school opinion.

[mbyron]

For me, it's not a question of old- or new-school. In my games, it's a question of safety.

All the games I work, with the exception of one league, use NFHS sliding rules. Given those rules, there is no safety-based justification for giving the neighborhood play. So I don't give it.

In the one men's league that uses pretty straight OBR, I give the neighborhood play, provided that the fielder touches the bag at some time close to when he has the ball.

For me, the neighborhood play is not intrinsically good for baseball. That is not to say it's intrinsically bad, just that it needs some other rationale to be called.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently) to get me to stop calling it. I make the player make the most of the play, and I thought that Aybar, by straddling the base, then pivoting to position his right leg on the backside of the base, had demonstrated enough "neighborhood." That's my opinion. I don't think I am "dead wrong" in any shape or form, just have a different, old school opinion.

No, you're not wrong; you're also right, like we determined. The fielder can be "near" the bag or make it "look good" and still be given the out.

... But I'm still making the fielder touch it at some point.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

... But I'm still making the fielder touch it at some point.

Hey, what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business!

[DG]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

There are exceptions of course, but I will take a good catcher over a good F6 or F4 any day, and yet we allow them to be crashed and possibly lost for the season, or a career. Safety is no reason to give the neighborhood call, they can touch and get out of the way. When was last time one was lost for the season over a routine play at 2B?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by DG

There are exceptions of course, but I will take a good catcher over a good F6 or F4 any day, and yet we allow them to be crashed and possibly lost for the season, or a career. Safety is no reason to give the neighborhood call, they can touch and get out of the way. When was last time one was lost for the season over a routine play at 2B?

A good take out slide doesn't really take the fielder out, it makes him get nothing on the ball to first because he's trying to get out of the way via jump, step back, etc. There is never a collision the way we see at the plate. F4/F6 job on the play is to 1) catch and transfer, sometime touching the base 2) Get the hell out of the way 3) give the throw to first. On the takeout slide, you can't do 3 without doing 2 first, hence, no injuries.

Far different from the play at plate, where F2's responsibilities are 1) Catch 2) Block 3) Brace/Tag (different orgs. may teach 1 and 2 vice versa to eliminate the steamroll before the ball ever gets there, or dekeing the runner into slowing up).

[johnnyg08]

FWIW, the worst replay system right now is NCAA DI football. Games are way too long w/ many unnecessary reviews.

[PeteBooth]

F2 has equipment F4/F6 have no equipment and are exposed.

Also, your comparison is not a good one. We are talking about ROUTINE plays not Bang bang plays.

When a runner comes crashing into F2 for the most part the play is close or F2 is blocking his path.

You cannot compare a play at the plate where F2 is blocking the runners path to a ROUTINE play at second base.

Pete Booth