When a crew can't reach a call...

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.

And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked.

Could someone take a crack at my real question?

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

I figured you misread... no biggie. I meant for the thread to be more philosophical anyway, these were just the best examples I could think of, when crews come together to "get it right" or try to eliminate what happened because of a crew mistake.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I figured you misread... no biggie. I meant for the thread to be more philosophical anyway, these were just the best examples I could think of, when crews come together to "get it right" or try to eliminate what happened because of a crew mistake.

But the examples you gave had nothing to do with rules interpretations, they were all about judgment calls that belong to one umpire or another. I'm not going to huddle or cuddle or whatever else they are calling it these days on a call that I'm positive that I got right, and was my call to start with. A screamer at BU's feet in A....still his call. Line drive to F4 while in the infield, still BU's call. These plays don't get a review in my games. I get the call right and don't allow for 2nd guessing. If they want to argue my call, fine. But I'm not running for help on a judgment call that belonged to me and me only.

Now if I were to totally miss making the call at all, as happened once when I was pretty new to umpiring, then fine, the other ump can step right in there. While working in A on a ball that was a close fair/foul over the base, I froze like a deer in the headlights and my partner saw this and immediately called, "Foul."

I'm not talking about unsure about a call and not making one, or totally spacing out and not making the call. I'm only talking about calls that I actually call that belong to me. Those are not up for discussion.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

But the examples you gave had nothing to do with rules interpretations, they were all about judgment calls that belong to one umpire or another. I'm not going to huddle or cuddle or whatever else they are calling it these days on a call that I'm positive that I got right, and was my call to start with. A screamer at BU's feet in A....still his call. Line drive to F4 while in the infield, still BU's call. These plays don't get a review in my games. I get the call right and don't allow for 2nd guessing. If they want to argue my call, fine. But I'm not running for help on a judgment call that belonged to me and me only.

Now if I were to totally miss making the call at all, as happened once when I was pretty new to umpiring, then fine, the other ump can step right in there. While working in A on a ball that was a close fair/foul over the base, I froze like a deer in the headlights and my partner saw this and immediately called, "Foul."

I'm not talking about unsure about a call and not making one, or totally spacing out and not making the call. I'm only talking about calls that I actually call that belong to me. Those are not up for discussion.

Depends on how you read the one about the appeal. If the PU was not counting it because he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if it's because he was treating the touch as a force instead of an appeal, then it's a rules problem.
________
Buy Glass Bongs

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Depends on how you read the one about the appeal. If the PU was not counting it because he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if it's because he was treating the touch as a force instead of an appeal, then it's a rules problem.

That's why I didn't list #3 in my above post, it's kind of "iffy."

[TussAgee11]

I'll say it again a final time...

I'm not talking about the actual poaching on calls.

I'm talking about when a crew has to get together to "fix" something that got f'd up, and a decision can't be made. Not the decision on what the actual call was (that goes to the umpire that had the call), but a decision on how to fix something. The need to "fix" something should never happen if everyone is doing their job, but far too often at the amateur level with a new pard' a mechanically sound game is not possible.

Nevertheless, Bob shed light on my question, so I'll be done with it since I must not be conveying what I'm actually trying to say.

[nopachunts]

TussAgee11,

I understand what you are asking, not the solution for the examples you gave but what to do to straighten out a fubar. First, I agree with what Bob said.

None the less, here is my $.02:
My order the final decision to "fix" the fubar is:
1) the Crew Chief or UIC if there is one
2) if not, the PU with one caveat. If the PU is a first or second year rookie and the BU has more experience, go with the BU or BU with the most experience in 3 or 4 man crews. If both crew members have the same amount of experience, the PU, it comes with the territory.

When the crew makes its decision, the crew member that is know UIC will tell the HCs what the resolution is going to be.

[UmpJM]

jicecone,

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

Great story, but I gotta' go with Steve. In every 2-man system I've ever seen, the call at 3B is the BU's in the sitch you described. And, I don't know what a "Ryobi chop saw" is either, but I inferred Steve was not being complimentary, and I'm with him there as well. Instant Karma can be a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I'll say it again a final time...

I'm not talking about the actual poaching on calls.

I'm talking about when a crew has to get together to "fix" something that got f'd up, and a decision can't be made. Not the decision on what the actual call was (that goes to the umpire that had the call), but a decision on how to fix something. The need to "fix" something should never happen if everyone is doing their job, but far too often at the amateur level with a new pard' a mechanically sound game is not possible.

Nevertheless, Bob shed light on my question, so I'll be done with it since I must not be conveying what I'm actually trying to say.

Tuss,

I think maybe the reason you're not getting the answer to your question is because you haven't framed it properly. If I understand you correctly, your essential question is:

What do you do when the umpire(s) screw up and it creates a "situation" which, by its nature, must be "fixed" - AND the crew can't come to consensus on what the "fix" should be?

I believe the answer to your question depends on what the proximate cause of the screw-up was. Usually it's one of four things:

1. Two umpires make different calls on the same play.

2. One umpire "poaches" a call that "should" have been the other umpire's and "errs" in making it.

3. One umpire is 99.9% certain that his partner is making a material misapplication of some aspect of the rules.

4. The umpire responsible for the call does not see what he needed to in order to make the call.

How you deal with it depends on which one it is.

In #1, that"s what 9.04(c) addresses. Partners get together, try to come to a consensus "best" call/result; if they can't, UIC gets to decide, announce, & explain. (Where I come from it's the plate guy unless previously specified otherwise.)

If it's #2, my philosophy is that the "poacher" gets to deal with the mess he made. His partner should be available for a private conversation if the poacher wants to. The partner should avoid recrimination at this point in time, and just give him whatever information and advice he can about how to fix the sitch. But, it's the poachers call, he gets to decide, announce, and explain.

Should #3 occur, my philosophy is to, as discreetly as possible, get my partner's attention & have a quick, private conversation and express my concern. I would try to be "convincing", but, ultimately, it's his call.

#4 could happen for any of a number of reasons - incompetence, an umpire falls or gets run into or injured, something "weird" happens in the development of the play and he gets screened/blocked out/straight-lined, whatever. In this case, the partner should give as much information as possible and suggest the best fix. But, I believe this one too is ultimately up to the guy whose call it was if the partners can't reach concensus.

I'm not suggesting this is the "right" or "only" way to deal with these sitches, it's just how I look at it.

JM

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by youngump

he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if

no, he was poaching a "TIME" play

[SanDiegoSteve]

So nobody got the Ryobi chop saw reference, huh? How about a Makita drill or a Bosch router? Milwaukee Sawz-All? Screwdriver? Hammer?

[UmpJM]

SDS,

Dawn breaks over marblehead...

A "tool".

JM

[jicecone]

Each new individual you work with, can be a new experience and sometimes you have to just go with the flow.

Probably my 4th year officiatiing I had the pleasure of working a Connie Mack game (17-18yr) with the worlds greatest umpire on this earth. He not only let me know this in our pre-game but even the coaches during the plate conference. He had my butt covered but, I had to do the plate because I was the rookie. OK He also implied that at the plate conference and stated that any discussions would be handled by him. Coaches said sure thing.

After each of the first two innings he felt it was necessary to come in and comment about my zone and mechanics because, well he was the worlds greatest. (Oh, and by the way did I tell you about the time he attented Jack Dainels Umpiring School in Florida) or (How about the time he got called to do the BIG boys but, had to turn it down because of other commitments).

Well, in the third inning there was a runner on second and 1 out. Ball is hit to shortstop and play is at first. I see the runner break for third and yell "I got three." Ball arrives to F5, runner slides and tag is made somewhere clearly above the belt, and I give my best rookie call of the game "SAFE".

Well, wouldnt you know the worlds greatest umpire decided he also had opinion about the play (Why not, he had an opinion about everything else.) and echoed a big "OUT". Then he followed it up with, "I got this call and he is out." I looked over to him and at the same time saw the HC coming out from the duggout and figured hey, I am going to let the worlds greatest umpire take care of this, and I did. Of course he had to throw out the HC when he implied that I might be the Rookie but at least I could see better than him. Oh and I also found out that he blew the call at first too but he handled explaining that away too.

So now the worlds greaest umpire got things calmed down and was ready to go. "Play", I say in my rookie voice. 2nd pitch and R1 takes off for 2nd base, Here's the pitch and the throw and PLUNK, down goes the worlds greatest umpire. He turned his back on the throw and the rookie had to finish the game by hisself.

Things pretty much went smoothly from there but, I will NEVER EVER forget working with the WORLDS GREATEST UMPIRE. (True story)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Well, in the third inning there was a runner on second and 1 out. Ball is hit to shortstop and play is at first. I see the runner break for third and yell "I got three." Ball arrives to F5, runner slides and tag is made somewhere clearly above the belt, and I give my best rookie call of the game "SAFE".

Well, wouldnt you know the worlds greatest umpire decided he also had opinion about the play (Why not, he had an opinion about everything else.) and echoed a big "OUT". Then he followed it up with, "I got this call and he is out." I looked over to him and at the same time saw the HC coming out from the duggout and figured hey, I am going to let the worlds greatest umpire take care of this, and I did. Of course he had to throw out the HC when he implied that I might be the Rookie but at least I could see better than him. Oh and I also found out that he blew the call at first too but he handled explaining that away too.

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

[RPatrino]

Ok, what is a Ryobi chop saw? Does Honig's sell them?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

For FED in the Fairfield County region of CT, this was the first year that BU has had both plays. Previous mechanic in our assoc. was for PU to come, although I always discussed differently in pregames of games that weren't FED.