Gameplay Situation I need a ruling on

[starman]

Note that the batter runner still needs to tag first. Otherwise, the defense could get a fourth out at first base. This would nullify the run.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by starman

Note that the batter runner still needs to tag first. Otherwise, the defense could get a fourth out at first base. This would nullify the run.

I would LOVE to see this rule.

FWIW J/R is wrong on this in my opinion.

[johnnyg08]

What page in J/R...I want to check out their take

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I would LOVE to see this rule.

FWIW J/R is wrong on this in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean by this? Rule 7.10d covers 4th outs. Is the "rule" you are referring too the interp from J/R? Please expand on this as I see the defense appealing that the B/R never touched 1B to nullify a run to be a legal & smart play.

[UmpTTS43]

Johnnyg - I don't own a J/R manual, but I have been told that they consider a "fourth out appeal" of the BR not reaching 1st a legal appeal.

Rube - 7.10d deals with a missed home plate appeal.

Briefly, I am of the opinion, that once the third out has been recorded, the BR no longer has the responsibility to touch 1st base. There are only four types of appeals that can result in a runner being called out. Out of the four, only three can result in an umpire recognizing an apparent "fourth out." The four are: 1) failure to properly tag up on a caught fly ball, 2) missed base, 3) failure of BR "immediately" returning to 1st after over running it, and 4) missed home plate. Number 3 is irrelevant due to the fact that the BR need not return to 1st base after the third out has been recorded. There is no appeal for "not reaching a base" after three outs have been recorded. An umpire cannot use abandonment in this case either, since abandonment is not an appeal play, thus resulting in a "time" play.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Briefly, I am of the opinion, that once the third out has been recorded, the BR no longer has the responsibility to touch 1st base.

I agree with your opinion if no runners have scored during the play. I will disagree if a runner has scored where the BR was retired for the third out. By rule, if the BR did not reach 1B safely where he would be the third out, no runner can score.

In the OP, Fivesdadda is asking if R3 could score if R3 crossed the plate prior to R2 being tagged out for the third out. If 1B was open and the BR never safely attained 1B, R3's run would not count even though R3 crossed HP prior to R2 being tagged.

[alex7]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

By rule, if the BR did not reach 1B safely where he would be the third out, no runner can score.

In the OP, Fivesdadda is asking if R3 could score if R3 crossed the plate prior to R2 being tagged out for the third out. If 1B was open and the BR never safely attained 1B, R3's run would not count even though R3 crossed HP prior to R2 being tagged.

I think the rule is no run can score IF the BR is put out before reaching first, not if he doesn't reach first safely. Two different things it seems, and importantly so.

Other posters have shown that not touching first on the OP play is not appealable, so I don't see how you wouldn't count the run nopachunts. Whether he touches first or not is irrelevant on the non-force 3rd out of R2, and the defense can't appeal the BR not touching first. Thus, score the run.

[bob jenkins]

This play has been around since Al Gore invented the interwebs:

R2, R3, two outs. B5 grounds to F6. As B5 runs toward first, he stumbles, breaks his ankle and lies writhing in pain on the ground. The following happens in order: R3 touches the plate. F6 throws the ball to F5 who tags R2 (three outs). F5 throws to F3 who steps on first (4 outs?).

Does the run count?

[johnnyg08]

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87

Here is the relevant portion of a post by someone identified as "Wendlestedt" at the Wendlestedt message board:

This is a base (first) never reached, not one which was not touched or not properly tagged up from. There is no appeal for never reaching a base. Unfortunately, neither Jaska and Roder have been in the game for sometime now, and even when they were, they were so analytical with the rules that they often failed to get what the rulebook intended for. That is what I expect happened in this case. They are what we call at umpire school "rule book lawyers".

Walk off Walk - Umpire School Forum

[starman]

I was not thinking of an appeal play. In the orignal play description, I was thining that the third baseman could throw to first to get a fourth out before the batter reaches first.

I just looked in the MLB rule book, and I confess that I did not find anything that clearly justifies this.

That is why I usually just read this board and keep my mouth shut

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87

One citation I will happily ignore.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Not sure what you mean by this? Rule 7.10d covers 4th outs. Is the "rule" you are referring too the interp from J/R? Please expand on this as I see the defense appealing that the B/R never touched 1B to nullify a run to be a legal & smart play.

4.09(b) and PENALTY is only applicable when it's the winning run in the bottom of the last inning, or the bottom of an extra inning. Then the BR must touch first or the run is nullified. At the end of any other inning, the BR is not required by rule to touch 1st base. If the run scores before the tag on an unforced runner, it counts and position of the BR is irrelevant.

[SAump]

With two outs, you have to find a ruling you like. I tend to enforce the same ruling when there are NO outs, one out or two outs.

Case: 2 outs, R3, R2, ground ball to OF fired home. R3 scores easily and R2 is thrown out at the plate. The B/R returns to the plate to pick up the bat and instruct R2 to slide. The pitcher sees the B/R's action and tells the catcher to fire the ball to 1B for an out. Does it count as an advantageous 4th out and take away the run scored by R3? I say it does and if you don't want to agree with SAump, fine.

Would your ruling change with 1 out?

Case: 1 out, R3, R2, ground ball to OF fired home. R3 scores easily and R2 is thrown out at the plate. The B/R returns to the plate to pick up the bat and instruct R2 to slide. The pitcher sees the B/R's action and tells the catcher to fire the ball to 1B for an out. Does it count as the 3rd out and take away the run scored by R3? I say it does and if you don't want to agree with SAump, fine.

Would your ruling change with 0 out?

Case: 0 out, R3, R2, ground ball to OF fired home. R3 scores easily and R2 is thrown out at the plate. The B/R returns to the plate to pick up the bat and instruct R2 to slide. The pitcher sees the B/R's action and tells the catcher to fire the ball to 1B for an out. 2 outs?

I have not seen a ruling which states the B/R has no obligation to continue running to 1B when the 3rd out has been made on another runner.