Asking to see the ball

[Jay R]

Last night, my partner (PU) had two close plays at home. Both times, he asked the catcher to show him the ball before he called the runner out. First play, no problem. On the second play, the catcher while laying on the ground tried (I think) to take the ball out of his glove to show the umpire the ball. In the process, the ball fell on the ground. My partner called the runner safe. The defensive team argued that the ball fell on the transfer.

After the game, the three of us discussed the play and none of us were certain what happened. I would assume there would have been an argument the other way too because it is hard to call the runner out at home when the ball is laying on the ground.

Here are my questions for you. Do you in these instances ask the catcher to show you the ball. Is it a good practice to do so?

[zm1283]

No, don't ask any fielder to show you the ball. The runner is still out on the play you described. That same play was covered on here a while back.

[bob jenkins]

If the player is in at least his second game, he will know to show the ball. Wait until you see it / find it.

[johnnyg08]

I tell the catcher while I'm watching warm up pitches in the 1st inning to show me the ball on tag plays at the plate...until I see the ball, I can't make a call.

[jdmara]

I agree with Bob. If you don't know where the ball is, how can you call the runner out? The ball could be lodged in either players equipment when you think it's in the fielder's glove. If you don't know where the ball is, wait to see it! I have asked to see the ball before when I was unsure where it was and the fielder was sitting there with the tag applied. Don't guess if you're not certain.

-Josh

[mbyron]

If I have a tag before the runner touches the plate, I point at F2 with my left hand and wait. If necessary, I might say, "show me the ball." When I've got the ball, I'll signal the out with my right hand and verbalize the call.

From the description of the OP the play is HTBT. I don't have any problem calling an out if the ball pops out "on the transfer," though when I'm asking to see the ball I'm not asking F2 to take it out of his glove.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If I have a tag before the runner touches the plate, I point at F2 with my left hand and wait. If necessary, I might say, "show me the ball." When I've got the ball, I'll signal the out with my right hand and verbalize the call.

Pointing on a tag play is not correct mechanics. The only time you are supposed to point on a tag is when it is a force situation and you are signaling that the out came on a tag rather than the force. Otherwise, it is considered a false timing mechanism.

Originally Posted by mbyron

From the description of the OP the play is HTBT. I don't have any problem calling an out if the ball pops out "on the transfer," though when I'm asking to see the ball I'm not asking F2 to take it out of his glove.

HTBT yes, but if the ball pops out without a voluntary release, or the fielder reaches in to grab the ball instead of showing it in the glove, I have a safe call. By saying, "show me the ball," you open yourself up to a fielder picking it up off the ground with his bare hand. On the other hand, if I feel that the action is now relaxed, then I have an out if sufficient control was exhibited before the ball came out.

[kylejt]

I really depends on the situation.

If there's other runners advancing, I'm just letting things play out. I'm not going to stop the catcher in making another play by having him show me the ball. I can figure that out on my own. If it's appropriate, I'll ask, but let the situation dicatate it.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I really depends on the situation.

If there's other runners advancing, I'm just letting things play out. I'm not going to stop the catcher in making another play by having him show me the ball. I can figure that out on my own. If it's appropriate, I'll ask, but let the situation dicatate it.

That is a good point. I guess that's the assumption I was making. Ultimately we can watch the catcher remove the ball out of his glove and make an additional play.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I really depends on the situation.

If there's other runners advancing, I'm just letting things play out. I'm not going to stop the catcher in making another play by having him show me the ball. I can figure that out on my own. If it's appropriate, I'll ask, but let the situation dicatate it.

If the catcher is making a play on another running is he going to show you whether he has control inadvertently, no need to ask.

-Josh

[Pensaump]

There used to be this guy that umpired around here. He told a position player one time after a tag to "show me the ball, show me the ball," the kid showed him the ball and he called this runner safe.

[Kevin Finnerty]

That just happened in a Bronco game I was coaching last month. It was more of a straining-to-see-the-ball-slow-stroll-and-pause routine, but once the kid pulled the ball out and showed it to him, he called the kid safe at third. And the guy is a pal of mine, who does challenging games like JUCO, H.S. varsity and scout leagues. It was hilarious.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Pointing on a tag play is not correct mechanics. The only time you are supposed to point on a tag is when it is a force situation and you are signaling that the out came on a tag rather than the force. Otherwise, it is considered a false timing mechanism.

Incorrect. It's only "false timing" if you have no legitimate reason to wait, and there's nothing legitimate to signal. Pointing in this case signals a tag before the runner reached the plate, and we wait to verify that the fielder has the ball. Otherwise, you could just signal an out.

Pointing is correct in the situation you reference. But it is also correct on a force play where the fielder has held the bag long enough and then comes off: "he had the bag (pointing)... he's out (signaling the out)."

You are of course free to do it as you like.

[RogersUmp]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

That is a good point. I guess that's the assumption I was making. Ultimately we can watch the catcher remove the ball out of his glove and make an additional play.

What about when there are two outs? The catcher makes the tag with his glove, you don't see the ball in his glove because of the cloud from the slide, he gets up and starts to run off the field and you signal out while the ball is lying on the ground. If he doesn't have the ball and doesn't realize it he is not going to be thinking about another play. I ask for it when I need to see it. If he can't show me he doesn't have it.

[johnnyg08]

Then that is the final play since that would be the 3rd out...I make no signal until I see the ball. I think the post I was referring to is a "snowball fight" type situation where there's maybe a play at the plate, then maybe on B/R going into 2B...obviously w/ < 2 out