Asking to see the ball

[bob jenkins]

If the player is in at least his second game, he will know to show the ball. Wait until you see it / find it.

[johnnyg08]

I tell the catcher while I'm watching warm up pitches in the 1st inning to show me the ball on tag plays at the plate...until I see the ball, I can't make a call.

[jdmara]

I agree with Bob. If you don't know where the ball is, how can you call the runner out? The ball could be lodged in either players equipment when you think it's in the fielder's glove. If you don't know where the ball is, wait to see it! I have asked to see the ball before when I was unsure where it was and the fielder was sitting there with the tag applied. Don't guess if you're not certain.

-Josh

[mbyron]

If I have a tag before the runner touches the plate, I point at F2 with my left hand and wait. If necessary, I might say, "show me the ball." When I've got the ball, I'll signal the out with my right hand and verbalize the call.

From the description of the OP the play is HTBT. I don't have any problem calling an out if the ball pops out "on the transfer," though when I'm asking to see the ball I'm not asking F2 to take it out of his glove.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If I have a tag before the runner touches the plate, I point at F2 with my left hand and wait. If necessary, I might say, "show me the ball." When I've got the ball, I'll signal the out with my right hand and verbalize the call.

Pointing on a tag play is not correct mechanics. The only time you are supposed to point on a tag is when it is a force situation and you are signaling that the out came on a tag rather than the force. Otherwise, it is considered a false timing mechanism.

Originally Posted by mbyron

From the description of the OP the play is HTBT. I don't have any problem calling an out if the ball pops out "on the transfer," though when I'm asking to see the ball I'm not asking F2 to take it out of his glove.

HTBT yes, but if the ball pops out without a voluntary release, or the fielder reaches in to grab the ball instead of showing it in the glove, I have a safe call. By saying, "show me the ball," you open yourself up to a fielder picking it up off the ground with his bare hand. On the other hand, if I feel that the action is now relaxed, then I have an out if sufficient control was exhibited before the ball came out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Pointing on a tag play is not correct mechanics. The only time you are supposed to point on a tag is when it is a force situation and you are signaling that the out came on a tag rather than the force. Otherwise, it is considered a false timing mechanism.

Incorrect. It's only "false timing" if you have no legitimate reason to wait, and there's nothing legitimate to signal. Pointing in this case signals a tag before the runner reached the plate, and we wait to verify that the fielder has the ball. Otherwise, you could just signal an out.

Pointing is correct in the situation you reference. But it is also correct on a force play where the fielder has held the bag long enough and then comes off: "he had the bag (pointing)... he's out (signaling the out)."

You are of course free to do it as you like.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Incorrect. It's only "false timing" if you have no legitimate reason to wait, and there's nothing legitimate to signal. Pointing in this case signals a tag before the runner reached the plate, and we wait to verify that the fielder has the ball. Otherwise, you could just signal an out.

Not proper mechanics. A tag play where no force is possible is not to be pointed at. As stated, the point on a tag is only to differentiate between "on the tag" and "on the force."

Originally Posted by mbyron

Pointing is correct in the situation you reference. But it is also correct on a force play where the fielder has held the bag long enough and then comes off: "he had the bag (pointing)... he's out (signaling the out)."

Yes, it is appropriate to point in this case too. I didn't say it wasn't. There are times when pointing is the right thing to do (like pointing to interference or obstruction, or awarding bases, for example).

What I said was that it isn't proper on a tag play where no force is possible. Which is correct, according to pro school teaching (unless something has drastically changed lately). You see a tag, watch the rest of the play, and at the very end you signal "out," either in a banger call or routine call, depending on the play. You don't point.

Originally Posted by mbyron

You are of course free to do it as you like.

I do as is taught by professionals, which is not to point on routine tag plays in non-force situations. It just looks a lot sharper to wait and then make the Out call.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What I said was that it isn't proper on a tag play where no force is possible. Which is correct, according to pro school teaching (unless something has drastically changed lately). You see a tag, watch the rest of the play, and at the very end you signal "out," either in a banger call or routine call, depending on the play. You don't point.

I believe nothing has changed at the schools. You are correct.

[kylejt]

I really depends on the situation.

If there's other runners advancing, I'm just letting things play out. I'm not going to stop the catcher in making another play by having him show me the ball. I can figure that out on my own. If it's appropriate, I'll ask, but let the situation dicatate it.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I really depends on the situation.

If there's other runners advancing, I'm just letting things play out. I'm not going to stop the catcher in making another play by having him show me the ball. I can figure that out on my own. If it's appropriate, I'll ask, but let the situation dicatate it.

That is a good point. I guess that's the assumption I was making. Ultimately we can watch the catcher remove the ball out of his glove and make an additional play.

[Pensaump]

There used to be this guy that umpired around here. He told a position player one time after a tag to "show me the ball, show me the ball," the kid showed him the ball and he called this runner safe.

[Kevin Finnerty]

That just happened in a Bronco game I was coaching last month. It was more of a straining-to-see-the-ball-slow-stroll-and-pause routine, but once the kid pulled the ball out and showed it to him, he called the kid safe at third. And the guy is a pal of mine, who does challenging games like JUCO, H.S. varsity and scout leagues. It was hilarious.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Pensaump

There used to be this guy that umpired around here. He told a position player one time after a tag to "show me the ball, show me the ball," the kid showed him the ball and he called this runner safe.

That is pretty darn funny!

[RogersUmp]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

That is a good point. I guess that's the assumption I was making. Ultimately we can watch the catcher remove the ball out of his glove and make an additional play.

What about when there are two outs? The catcher makes the tag with his glove, you don't see the ball in his glove because of the cloud from the slide, he gets up and starts to run off the field and you signal out while the ball is lying on the ground. If he doesn't have the ball and doesn't realize it he is not going to be thinking about another play. I ask for it when I need to see it. If he can't show me he doesn't have it.

[johnnyg08]

Then that is the final play since that would be the 3rd out...I make no signal until I see the ball. I think the post I was referring to is a "snowball fight" type situation where there's maybe a play at the plate, then maybe on B/R going into 2B...obviously w/ < 2 out