Scoring Question: Error vs. Hit

[Shmuelg]

This situation, I think, has happened several times, and the scoring program we use (FixedIt!) here in the 18th Maccabiah does not allow me to do what I want to do:

Sitch: Pop-up to foul territory, easy out, first baseman comes in to get it, expecting to get it easily, BUT of course drops it. Foul territory. Obviously a foul ball, and the blue called it that way. Good call. IMO, an error.

Next pitch, the batter hits a solid single to right-center. No error on the hit.
(End Sitch)

So, I WANT to charge an error to the first baseman, yet I need to give a hit to the batter. The run (he did eventually score) should be unearned. BUT the program doesn't let me do this. If there is an error, then the BR gets on base via the error, and does not get a hit. Yet if I score a hit, the run is earned, which it should not be.

First of all, am I getting the scoring intent correct here? A hit, but an error also and the run unearned?

Second of all, is anyone aware of how I can "soft-shoe" around the dumb program? Maybe use another one? But all the programs I have seen behave the same - Either an error or a hit, either or. Never both.

(what I did in the meantime is to ignore that flubbed pop fly. So the run was earned, the batter got a hit, and the 1B did not get charged with an error).

Thanks

[SanDiegoSteve]

Shmuelg, as you know, this is an umpire forum, and we rarely, if ever, look at Rule 10. I don't know the answer here, but in case you don't get an answer, I suggest this forum here, which is dedicated to this endeavor:

The Baseball Scorecard

[Ump Rube]

I agree with SDS, not much 10 to go around, but I will take a whack 'cause I like a challenge. Depending on what else happened that inning, I would give a hit to the batter, and then charge an error on F3 on a pick-off that should (maybe) get you the desired outcome in the program. Beyond that I think "Scorecard" might be the way to go.

[mbyron]

You don't seem to understand what an 'error' is. It's a scorekeeping device to explain a baserunner who becomes one not through his skill but through the defense's lack thereof. No baserunner (as on a dropped foul), nothing to explain, no error.

Scorekeeping is about tracking offense. The defense misplayed a foul ball and lost an out. That's a mistake, no doubt, but not an error properly so called. Since no one can possibly score on this play, scorekeeping doesn't account for it.

The batter got a hit and his run, if he scores, will be earned (barring other errors). That he might have been put out is irrelevant from the standpoint of tracking offense. Let it go.

Don't look for a work-around: your software is right.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You don't seem to understand what an 'error' is. It's a scorekeeping device to explain a baserunner who becomes one not through his skill but through the defense's lack thereof. No baserunner (as on a dropped foul), nothing to explain, no error.

Scorekeeping is about tracking offense. The defense misplayed a foul ball and lost an out. That's a mistake, no doubt, but not an error properly so called. Since no one can possibly score on this play, scorekeeping doesn't account for it.

The batter got a hit and his run, if he scores, will be earned (barring other errors). That he might have been put out is irrelevant from the standpoint of tracking offense. Let it go.

Don't look for a work-around: your software is right.

A dropped foul popup is an error.

10.12 (a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

A dropped foul popup is an error.

10.12 (a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Thanks Rich. So's my post.

Next time, I'll just say "umpires don't know rule 10" instead of exhibit it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I just went to the linked site I provided, and found that there hasn't been a post there for the last two years. Sorry, probably not a good resource for answers anymore.

[Rock Chalk]

It is an error.

I would try and read in the index of the program or find any help feature. The stat program that I use has a function for this exact error. An out should have been recorded so it has to be an error. I would try to search in your program a little harder. Then again, maybe you have so perhaps the program can't do it. Call the maker perhaps??

[SethPDX]

Shmuel,

I use FixedIt when working games for a company that collects Minor League stats here in the US. Here is what we have been instructed to do. I just tried it in my version of the program and it seemed to work:

Enter your foul ball as you typically do, select "ok" at pitch data window. Now at batter window go to "details", at "Details window" in lower right is "Other Errors". On line one, enter player getting error from drop down menu, next under error type select "pop foul error" from menu.

Hope this helps.

[cc6]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You don't seem to understand what an 'error' is. It's a scorekeeping device to explain a baserunner who becomes one not through his skill but through the defense's lack thereof. No baserunner (as on a dropped foul), nothing to explain, no error.

Scorekeeping is about tracking offense. The defense misplayed a foul ball and lost an out. That's a mistake, no doubt, but not an error properly so called. Since no one can possibly score on this play, scorekeeping doesn't account for it.

The batter got a hit and his run, if he scores, will be earned (barring other errors). That he might have been put out is irrelevant from the standpoint of tracking offense. Let it go.

Don't look for a work-around: your software is right.

Error on the first baseman, hit to the batter, not a hit charged to the pitcher, unearned run if that runner scores. Those dropped fouls are a strange species. I would say no hit to the batter, but instead it is the only way a pitcher can pitch a perfect game with an error still in the boxscore.

[cc6]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

Shmuel,

I use FixedIt when working games for a company that collects Minor League stats here in the US. Here is what we have been instructed to do. I just tried it in my version of the program and it seemed to work:

Enter your foul ball as you typically do, select "ok" at pitch data window. Now at batter window go to "details", at "Details window" in lower right is "Other Errors". On line one, enter player getting error from drop down menu, next under error type select "pop foul error" from menu.

Hope this helps.

I don't think he was asking for software help, but whatever:

hit to the batter
unearned run and no hit against the pitcher
error to the fielder

[cc6]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I just went to the linked site I provided, and found that there hasn't been a post there for the last two years. Sorry, probably not a good resource for answers anymore.

Maybe they changed the OBR scoring rules since that site.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by cc6

I don't think he was asking for software help

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

This situation, I think, has happened several times, and the scoring program we use (FixedIt!) here in the 18th Maccabiah does not allow me to do what I want to do:

Sitch: Pop-up to foul territory, easy out, first baseman comes in to get it, expecting to get it easily, BUT of course drops it. Foul territory. Obviously a foul ball, and the blue called it that way. Good call. IMO, an error.

Next pitch, the batter hits a solid single to right-center. No error on the hit.
(End Sitch)

So, I WANT to charge an error to the first baseman, yet I need to give a hit to the batter. The run (he did eventually score) should be unearned. BUT the program doesn't let me do this.

The way I read it he was, and I gave him something that might help him. He knows how he wants to score the play, he just needs to know how to enter it into the program he is using.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by cc6

I don't think he was asking for software help, but whatever:

That was exactly what he was asking for.

[Tim C]

With scoring rules as they are now (in the olden days the scorer would wait to see what happened to the batter - if he was retired then no error would be charged) a pitcher could throw a perfect game but his team could be charged with an error.

Is this correct?