Double Play or Not?

[mbyron]

This is getting a little silly. Of course, if you change the case so that the contact is illegal, I'd agree that it's illegal and rule accordingly.

The only thing you've added to the discussion (beyond a personal remark about me) is your opinion that you could knock a runner off the base while watching the ball. Maybe you could, if the ball were high enough and the runner weren't paying attention. So?

[umpjong]

After a little (actually a lot) of research.....

About the author:
Bruce Markusen has worked at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum since 1995. In September of 2000, he became the Hall of Fame's Manager of Program Presentations, after having worked as a Senior Researcher in the Hall's Library. In his various capacities at the Hall of Fame, he has written numerous articles for publication, conducted audio-visual interviews for the Hall's archives, and narrated Hall of Fame video productions.

There is no provision in the written rules that says a fielder can’t bump a runner off the bag. “There is no such rule,” says Burley. “I understand that it is commonly believed that there is, but there is not. It’s not a rule and so there is only a general practice, [but] there is no clarity. A hard slap-tag that pushes a runner off the bag (when he had just touched it) can easily be called an out.”

This is a classic example of a situation that is not covered by the Official Baseball Rules, the published rule book that is distributed each year for use in running major and minor league games. Rather, it is an example of “practical enforcement”—a rule that is applied in general practice—in true-to-life game situations even though it is not specifically spelled out by the rules. (Now it’s also possible that such a rule is covered under the more thorough rules manual that is given to each major league umpire; this manual, which covers the rules in far more detail than the Official Baseball Rules, is not made available to the general public.) Such a ruling, which would allow the runner to remain safe after being pushed or bumped off the bag by the fielder’s body, has been applied in a practical sense for as long as I've been watching baseball (which is since the early 1970s). And that’s really the common sense approach. Otherwise, fielders would be trying to push runners off the base at every opportunity, making baseball the equivalent of bumper cars or block-and-tackle football.

So what are we to make of all this? In general, it seems that umpires will allow a fielder the hard slap-tag, but not a body-to-body collision that forces a runner off the base. That appears to be the general application, but these situations would become much clearer if baseball’s Playing Rules Committee would include a specific provision in its published rules, so that everybody knows the deal.

Link to entire article/reference

Oakland A's Fan Coalition - Athletics baseball enthusiasts dedicated to watching a winner

[mbyron]

Thanks. Still not relevant though: the OP is about F6 fielding a batted ball, not playing on a runner with a "hard slap tag" or "pushing him off base."

I'm not sure why you repeatedly decline to see the difference: in the OP the fielder is protected, in your case, he isn't.

But go ahead and keep saying, "it's just like this other case with a different ruling," and rule on it as you wish. It's your choice to remain invincibly ignorant.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Thanks. Still not relevant though: the OP is about F6 fielding a batted ball, not playing on a runner with a "hard slap tag" or "pushing him off base."

I'm not sure why you repeatedly decline to see the difference: in the OP the fielder is protected, in your case, he isn't.

But go ahead and keep saying, "it's just like this other case with a different ruling," and rule on it as you wish. It's your choice to remain invincibly ignorant.

You know I have been more than civil, it seems that you are the one who does not want to face reality. You have shown nothing in regards to your application of the rules, which shows why you probably will continue to work lower levels.
And you refuse to accept that none of the written examples and interpretations distinguishes between your absurd notion that there is a difference between a fielder knocking a runner off a base making a play or not. Please read the article in total without blinders on and you might actually learn something. I'm actually tired of your incompetence.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by umpjong

After a little (actually a lot) of research.....

...

umpjong,

So, you weren't able to find anything probative, despite your research?

JM

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

umpjong,

So, you weren't able to find anything probative, despite your research?

JM

Read the article.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Read the article.

umpjong,

I have.

JM

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

umpjong,

I have.

JM

I have shown a creditable source on the subject. In all of the resources looked at there has been no reference to your contention that a runner can be tagged out by a fielder after being physically pushed off of a base by a fielder. In fact every one has indicated that the runners initiative was the key variable. If you can come up with one resource/interpretation or link that supports your position then I will listen. Thats all I ask.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by umpjong

After a little (actually a lot) of research.....

About the author:
Bruce Markusen has worked at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum since 1995. In September of 2000, he became the Hall of Fame's Manager of Program Presentations, after having worked as a Senior Researcher in the Hall's Library. In his various capacities at the Hall of Fame, he has written numerous articles for publication, conducted audio-visual interviews for the Hall's archives, and narrated Hall of Fame video productions.

There is no provision in the written rules that says a fielder can’t bump a runner off the bag. “There is no such rule,” says Burley. “I understand that it is commonly believed that there is, but there is not. It’s not a rule and so there is only a general practice, [but] there is no clarity. A hard slap-tag that pushes a runner off the bag (when he had just touched it) can easily be called an out.”

This is a classic example of a situation that is not covered by the Official Baseball Rules, the published rule book that is distributed each year for use in running major and minor league games. Rather, it is an example of “practical enforcement”—a rule that is applied in general practice—in true-to-life game situations even though it is not specifically spelled out by the rules. (Now it’s also possible that such a rule is covered under the more thorough rules manual that is given to each major league umpire; this manual, which covers the rules in far more detail than the Official Baseball Rules, is not made available to the general public.) Such a ruling, which would allow the runner to remain safe after being pushed or bumped off the bag by the fielder’s body, has been applied in a practical sense for as long as I've been watching baseball (which is since the early 1970s). And that’s really the common sense approach. Otherwise, fielders would be trying to push runners off the base at every opportunity, making baseball the equivalent of bumper cars or block-and-tackle football.

So what are we to make of all this? In general, it seems that umpires will allow a fielder the hard slap-tag, but not a body-to-body collision that forces a runner off the base. That appears to be the general application, but these situations would become much clearer if baseball’s Playing Rules Committee would include a specific provision in its published rules, so that everybody knows the deal.

Link to entire article/reference

Oakland A's Fan Coalition - Athletics baseball enthusiasts dedicated to watching a winner

So, the museum worker offers no assistance in the OP, eh?

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

So, the museum worker offers no assistance in the OP, eh?

I see your reading comprehension is at a high level !!!

Try adding something constructive for once!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by umpjong

I see your reading comprehension is at a high level !!!

Try adding something constructive for once!

Umpjong, we aren't going to change anyone's position on this. Those who want to squeeze every last out they can get, no matter in what manner it is accomplished, are going to continue to do so, no matter what common sense (not to mention fairness or decency) dictates.

[rookieblue]

Oh, so it's a character issue, too?

Geez. There's more friggin' straw men running through this thread than the hospitality bar at a scarecrow convention.

I concur with mbyron and the brilliant (and sharply dressed) former coach.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Wrong thread, huh Georgia?

[PeteBooth]

Agreed Steve

here is the OP

Runner at 2nd, 1 out. Pop-up over 2nd base. Runner stays on base. Shortstop running to make the catch runs into the runner knocking him off the base. Shortstop catches the pop-up and tags the runner who is off the base. Double play or not?

For those that will call the runner out on this play - GET READY because in all liklihood you will have to EJ the OM.

It will go something like this (after OM requests and is granted TIME)

Mgr: Blue why is my runner out.

Blue: he was tagged while off his base

Mgr: (thinking to himself -DUH) Blue my runner was pushed / shoved off the base.

Blue: No skip that's baseball

Mgr: You mean to tell me that it is ok for a fielder to push / shove runners off a base and then tag them for an out.

Blue: Skip that's the call time to play

The manager will most likely "go off" and say something like that's the worst f$$$$$$g call I ever saw. If that's the case then I will tell all my fielders to simply shove the runner of the base etc, etc. etc.

In other words - It's by by skip

Granted we cannot officiate because we do not want to get a manager mad. heck the mgr will get mad anyway. The point is this:

Did the fileder make a legitimate play on the runner and did the runner come off the base DUE to his OWN momentum not some "outside" factor.

In Summary: I agree with Steve in that umpires will call the way they want to see this play. I believe we all want outs. The question is this a LEGITIMATE out or looking for straws.

Now if it was 95 - 100 degrees and the game was at the 3 hr. mark and this SECOND out call ends the game then by all means it's time to go.

Pete Booth

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This is getting a little silly. Of course, if you change the case so that the contact is illegal, I'd agree that it's illegal and rule accordingly.

The only thing you've added to the discussion (beyond a personal remark about me) is your opinion that you could knock a runner off the base while watching the ball. Maybe you could, if the ball were high enough and the runner weren't paying attention. So?

Can you please answer my 2 previous questions along with a new one? Ill repeat them for you so you dont have to back track

What if the SS lowers his shoulder or puts his hands up in a "push up" like position, do you still have non-obstruction on the SS?

Is there a difference between blatant pushing or blatant shouldering or subtle forearm shove?

does it matter at all if the runner is paying attention [to the SS] or not?

Thanks