Double play at first

mydingding77 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 05:45pm

there was a play this past weekend in our mens slowpitch for which i could not get a clear explanation out of the umpire.

Runner on first no outs. Hard grounder to first baseman. runner does not leave base. First baseman tags runner then first base. Umpire rules double play.

i questioned the umpire to explain why both players were out as i was unclear myself, and he just changed his mind to say the runner left the bag. I asked a few officials and players at the field and got mixed respones. Could someone please clarify the explanation?

DC

AtlUmpSteve · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 06:00pm

Correct ruling. When the batter becomes a batter-runner, R1 is forced to 2nd base, and staying on 1st base is not a safe haven (unless BR is put out first). Since R1 was tagged first, R1 is out. BR still must reach 1st before 1st is tagged; and didn't. Double play.

If F3 tagged the base first, then R1 could have safely stayed on 1st, as the force would have been released. Didn't happen in that sequence, according to your own account.

IRISHMAFIA · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 06:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mydingding77

there was a play this past weekend in our mens slowpitch for which i could not get a clear explanation out of the umpire.

Runner on first no outs. Hard grounder to first baseman. runner does not leave base. First baseman tags runner then first base. Umpire rules double play.

i questioned the umpire to explain why both players were out as i was unclear myself, and he just changed his mind to say the runner left the bag. I asked a few officials and players at the field and got mixed respones. Could someone please clarify the explanation?

DC

The runner on 1B at the TOP is forced to go to 2B, therefore staying in contact with 1B does not protect him and he can be tagged. Out 1. Touching 1B while in possession of the ball prior to the BR touching the base is Out 2. No brainer, the defender made a smart play.

If the defender touched the base first, then the force is removed and the runner is protected while in contact with the base.

Hope that helps

mydingding77 · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 06:08pm

Thank you guys for your help.

What you guys are saying is what we thought but the umpire got rattled and couldn't give an explanation. Are umpires trained in any way to explain rulings to coaches as i have seen many struggle to do so when questioned and/or yelled at?

AtlUmpSteve · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 06:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mydingding77

Thank you guys for your help.

What you guys are saying is what we thought but the umpire got rattled and couldn't give an explanation. Are umpires trained in any way to explain rulings to coaches as i have seen many struggle to do so when questioned and/or yelled at?

Well, when being yelled at, no explanation is necessary. Ejected coaches have no standing.

CecilOne · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Well, when being yelled at, no explanation is necessary. Ejected coaches have no standing.

Good point.

Maybe it wasn't the speaker who was rattled.

tcblue13 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 07:59pm

I can see how a blue could become rattled when called upon to explain a ruling.
What are your best tips for keeping calm and being able to thoroughly explain the ruling to the coach. This is where I would begin.
1. It Begins with a thorough knowledge of the rules.
2. The umpire must have observed and be able to recount the play in detail so observation is key
3. He needs to have the realization that he is in charge until the game is over and there are no appeals.

wadeintothem · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 05, 2006, 08:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mydingding77

Thank you guys for your help.

What you guys are saying is what we thought but the umpire got rattled and couldn't give an explanation. Are umpires trained in any way to explain rulings to coaches as i have seen many struggle to do so when questioned and/or yelled at?

Nothing like a nice midgame rules clinic with a coach who doesnt accept it, isnt listening, more interesting in whimpering or rattling an ump than learning the rules of the game they "coach", and rare is the coach who actually goes looking for the answer themselves by actually reading a rule book.

So congrats to you for at least having the initiative to seek out the answer and enhance your rules knowledge.

tcblue13 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Nothing like a nice midgame rules clinic with a coach who doesnt accept it, isnt listening, more interesting in whimpering or rattling an ump than learning the rules of the game they "coach", and rare is the coach who actually goes looking for the answer themselves by actually reading a rule book.

So congrats to you for at least having the initiative to seek out the answer and enhance your rules knowledge.

You can say that again

Skahtboi · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcblue13

You can say that again

Bored, tcblue? Reading old posts? Or are you searching for the post alluded to in another thread on here?

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcblue13

You can say that again

I opened this thread and got cobwebs and dust bunnies all over my desk!

strike4 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 02:34pm

Same play except line drive to F6. PU ruled a catch. R1 returns to 1B as F6 throws to F3 who touches the base for double play. BU rules safe at 1B. OC appeals the catch by F6. PU asked BU for help. BU advises that F6 trapped the ball.

How would you handle this?

Skahtboi · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4

Same play except line drive to F6. PU ruled a catch. R1 returns to 1B as F6 throws to F3 who touches the base for double play. BU rules safe at 1B. OC appeals the catch by F6. PU asked BU for help. BU advises that F6 trapped the ball.

How would you handle this?

All right, you be the BU, and I'll be the PU.

"What did you just say? Sorry, I am having trouble hearing you with all this crowd noise. Nope....can't hear a thing. Sorry."

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4

Same play except line drive to F6. PU ruled a catch. R1 returns to 1B as F6 throws to F3 who touches the base for double play. BU rules safe at 1B. OC appeals the catch by F6. PU asked BU for help. BU advises that F6 trapped the ball.

How would you handle this?

Looks like an umpire jeopardy ruling, but the offense and defense were both "jeopardized" by the out call, so you have to use the god rule. Can we judge that R1 would not have reached 2nd if the PU ruled no catch in the first place?

tcblue13 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 22, 2009, 11:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Bored, tcblue? Reading old posts? Or are you searching for the post alluded to in another thread on here?

Yup
Yup
and Yup

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