Phantom Double Play

[EMD]

Have you ever called the Phantom Double Play? If so, what where the circumstances? The reason I’m asking is that some post describe a longing for the traditions of baseball to return, and the PDP is one of the "Unwritten Rules" that I have not witnessed in a long time. What do you think?

[Matthew F]

What is a "Phantom Double Play"? Is this the same thing as the "Neighborhood Play" (what they call it around here), where the fielder makes a symbolic touch of 2B (or straddles 2B) but doesn't actually touch 2B?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by EMD
Have you ever called the Phantom Double Play? If so, what where the circumstances? The reason I’m asking is that some post describe a longing for the traditions of baseball to return, and the PDP is one of the "Unwritten Rules" that I have not witnessed in a long time. What do you think?

In leagues were the boys still run each other over when neccessary and are allowed to "take him out", it is much more accepted.

For the most part though, most of the leagues (and college), have instituted some form of a force play slide rule. Which I believe cuts down on the need for a PDP.

[LDUB]

You better be pretty damn sure the guy didn't touch second base if you are going to call safe.

[David Emerling]

First of all, I agree that the "neighborhood play" should not be a consideration on the part of the umpire whenever the rules provide for a force play slide rule.

Secondly, when the "neighborhood play" *is* called, the pivot man should never be exempt from actually touching the base. He *must* still touch the base, however, he may not actually have the ball at the time he touches it. The umpire should not split hairs as to whether the pivot man was in contact with the base at the time he received the throw. But it has to be reasonably close and the play most be fluid.

I liken this to when 1st basemen pull their foot off the base a bit early when receiving the infielder's throw. You see this all the time. He doesn't want to keep his foot anywhere near the bag as the runner crosses the bag. The umpire understands this and doesn't nitpick about whether his foot was on the bag at the split instant he receives the throw provided ...

* the first baseman did, in fact, have contact with the bag just prior to receiving the throw.
* the first baseman doesn't leave the bag early as a means of receiving the ball sooner on a bang-bang play.
* the first baseman doesn't leave the bag early to facilitate catching a poor throw
* the first baseman doesn't leave the bag early to facilitate making a following play ... like a throw to the plate.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by EMD

Have you ever called the Phantom Double Play? If so, what where the circumstances? The reason I’m asking is that some post describe a longing for the traditions of baseball to return, and the PDP is one of the "Unwritten Rules" that I have not witnessed in a long time. What do you think?

I disagree with what has been said so far and IMO, the theory "When a runner is OUT they are OUT" still exists no matter what rule code you are playing under.

In other words, every pitch is a STRIKE until proven otherwise.

Same is true with the "neighborhood play" or the "phantom tag"

If the player is out "by a mile" then the defense needs to proove to you that the runner is safe, meaning

The defense makes a bad throw pulling F4/F6 off the bag. If that's the case, then we need to SEE the touch of the base on the part of either F4/F6, however, if the throw "is on the money" and F4/F6 are in the vicinity or "neighborhood" as we say of the bag, then we have an out.

Same is true concerning the phantom tag. 1. Player out "by a mile" (good margin), good throw and tag where it should be = OUT.

In Summary; When a runner is out they are out and the defense needs to proove to you otherwise.

Side Note: Do not confuse the "neigborhood play" or "phantom tag" with close plays or bang bang. We are talking about instances where the runner is CLEARLY out.

Pete Booth

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
[snip]
The defense makes a bad throw pulling F4/F6 off the bag. If that's the case, then we need to SEE the touch of the base on the part of either F4/F6, however, if the throw "is on the money" and F4/F6 are in the vicinity or "neighborhood" as we say of the bag, then we have an out.
[snip]
Pete Booth [/B]

Yet, I think under any condition the pivot man must touch the base. If he misses it completely, never so much as touching the bag, I would not call an out.

I don't think the "neighborhood play" suggests that the fielder never touches the bag, instead, it involves the fielder not being ON the bag WITH the ball.

The classic example is the fielder dragging his foot across the bag ... separating from the bag ... catching the throw a split second later ... THEN making his throw to 1st.

If you look at the photo that is in the most recent article I wrote, our 2nd baseman actually caught the ball while OFF the bag but only after crossing over the bag and making contact with it. Had he completely missed the bag I am of the opinion that the runner should NOT be called out.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[EMD]

My question about the PDP comes from a book I am reading that discussed the PDP as an unwritten rule where the MLB players expected the umpires to call it due to the slide from R1 attempting to "take out" the thrower. Other books about the history of the game and rules describes the reason for players accepting the PDP being called is that umpires at the time seldom called interference.

One of the books is "Baseball by the Rules" by Glen Waggoner, Kathleen Moloney and Hugh Howard. Other information has been gleaned from articles off the internet and older rule books (circa 1950).