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There is no rule that protects a runner who is bumped off the base by incidental contact. At lower levels you might do that, but not HS or above.
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Cheers, mb |
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"So it is OK to push a runner off of the base if no play is being made on him, but not OK if a play is being made on him?" Where is your rule reference for this? The interpretation in the Hrbek play states that the runner is out only if his (offensive players) momentum caused him to leave the base. Clearly this did not happen in the OP.. |
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I'm not penalizing the runner, no matter what level of ball they're playing. And, I would wager that I would get less grief calling it my way, than if I called the runner out for the wrong actions of F6. I call the runner out and watch all hell break loose. No thanks.
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Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25 |
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After incidental contact, we play on. And you have yet to come up with a shred of rules backing for your wacky notion that a runner is protected back to his base after incidental contact. 2. I can't fathom how you can envision F6 chasing a fly ball and intentionally running into R2. He's watching the ball! My internal video of this case has F6 running across the field, slowing down near the base, and bumping R2 (who was not paying attention) just before the catch. If the ball were farther right, F4 would have taken it, so he's not running full tilt across the base. But the point is irrelevant: the force of the contact doesn't matter, as long as it's incidental. I certainly agree that if I judged that F6 intentionally pushed R2 off the base, that would not result in an out. But then again, that would be an illegal act by F6, and not incidental contact. To my mind, there's a significant difference here: in the OP, F6 is doing what he's supposed to -- fielding the ball. In your case, he's not -- he's pushing the runner off base. That's a difference that makes a difference to the ruling. 3. Finally, and again, I think either of our calls will yield equal grief from coaches. I maintain that the rules are on my side, as 7.08(c) clearly applies to this situation. If you're talking mainly about a case where F6 intentionally pushes the runner off the base, then we're not disagreeing, because I'd rule the same as you. But in the OP, I've got two outs. And barring something new and pertinent in this thread, I think we've covered it pretty thoroughly and won't be posting further.
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Cheers, mb |
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Yet you still ignore the interpretation of the Hrbek play. It was clearly ruled that the runners initiative, not the defensive players initiative was the key to whether the runner was to be declared out or safe. And if you contend that the plays are different, how? The defensive player either knocked him off of the base or he didnt. The runner is either protected because of the act by the fielder or he is not because he came off by his own initiative. Seems simple to me. (And Oh yeah, fair also.)
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Exactly, except I read the OP as intentionally, as was stated, "running into the runner," not just "bumping into him incidentally." BTW, your definition of incidental is not correct. Incidental does not equal "not illegal." It means casual, or secondary, or minor. Nothing to do with legality whatsoever.
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Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25 |
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Well, I'm a little late to this party, but I've got to agree with mbyron and jicecone - as long as the fielder was making a legitimate attempt to field the batted ball and the runner did not intentionally interfere, this is nothing but a "train wreck" - live ball, play the bounce.
The rules grant equal opportunity to the protected fielder and the runner in contact with his base to occupy the same space at the same time in this situation. When contact/a collision occurs in these circumstances, whatever happens happens. It is, as J/R says (and mbyron in this thread), "incidental contact". If the runner happens to lose contact with his base as a result of the collision, he is liable to be tagged out while off his base. If the fielder happens to be unable to catch the ball as a result of the collision, too bad - live ball, play the bounce. JM
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Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all. |
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Don't worry about being late to the party, I'm here so lets get it going again
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------ If R2 shoulders F6, we have INT every time. If F6 shoulders / pushes R2, we have OBS every time. If both are staring at the ball, and two bodies collide, we have NOTHING every time. Want a rule? 7.08 c applies because nothing else in the book does. |
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Both 8-2-8 and 8.2.4I suggest that the principle is the same in FED - the runner need not vacate his base to avoid a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball. (Well, an "in-flight" batted ball, anyway.) Why do you think FED differs in this regard? JM
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Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all. |
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JJ |
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Yes, you are supposed to use your baseball acumen to judge whether the fielder intentionally knocked the runner off the base or was making a legitimate effort to field the batted ball. Like football, baseball is a "contact sport". Unlike football, it is not an "intentional contact sport". As described, the essential question in the OP is whether anyone is "penalized" - or aspects of the play are "nullified" - because the result of the legal contact was the runner losing contact with his base and subsequently being tagged out. To me, there is no basis in the rules for anything other than, "live ball, play the bounce". As it would be if the OP were changed so that the contact prevented the F6 from making the catch. Legal contact, whatever happens, happens. Fair is actually playing by the rules rather than injecting a foreign notion of "fairness" because something weird happens. I do not believe an "official interpretation" exists that would clarify the question. JM
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Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all. |
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