Double Play or Not?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by umpjong

After a little (actually a lot) of research.....

About the author:
Bruce Markusen has worked at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum since 1995. In September of 2000, he became the Hall of Fame's Manager of Program Presentations, after having worked as a Senior Researcher in the Hall's Library. In his various capacities at the Hall of Fame, he has written numerous articles for publication, conducted audio-visual interviews for the Hall's archives, and narrated Hall of Fame video productions.

There is no provision in the written rules that says a fielder can’t bump a runner off the bag. “There is no such rule,” says Burley. “I understand that it is commonly believed that there is, but there is not. It’s not a rule and so there is only a general practice, [but] there is no clarity. A hard slap-tag that pushes a runner off the bag (when he had just touched it) can easily be called an out.”

This is a classic example of a situation that is not covered by the Official Baseball Rules, the published rule book that is distributed each year for use in running major and minor league games. Rather, it is an example of “practical enforcement”—a rule that is applied in general practice—in true-to-life game situations even though it is not specifically spelled out by the rules. (Now it’s also possible that such a rule is covered under the more thorough rules manual that is given to each major league umpire; this manual, which covers the rules in far more detail than the Official Baseball Rules, is not made available to the general public.) Such a ruling, which would allow the runner to remain safe after being pushed or bumped off the bag by the fielder’s body, has been applied in a practical sense for as long as I've been watching baseball (which is since the early 1970s). And that’s really the common sense approach. Otherwise, fielders would be trying to push runners off the base at every opportunity, making baseball the equivalent of bumper cars or block-and-tackle football.

So what are we to make of all this? In general, it seems that umpires will allow a fielder the hard slap-tag, but not a body-to-body collision that forces a runner off the base. That appears to be the general application, but these situations would become much clearer if baseball’s Playing Rules Committee would include a specific provision in its published rules, so that everybody knows the deal.

Link to entire article/reference

Oakland A's Fan Coalition - Athletics baseball enthusiasts dedicated to watching a winner

So, the museum worker offers no assistance in the OP, eh?

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

So, the museum worker offers no assistance in the OP, eh?

I see your reading comprehension is at a high level !!!

Try adding something constructive for once!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by umpjong

I see your reading comprehension is at a high level !!!

Try adding something constructive for once!

Umpjong, we aren't going to change anyone's position on this. Those who want to squeeze every last out they can get, no matter in what manner it is accomplished, are going to continue to do so, no matter what common sense (not to mention fairness or decency) dictates.

[rookieblue]

Oh, so it's a character issue, too?

Geez. There's more friggin' straw men running through this thread than the hospitality bar at a scarecrow convention.

I concur with mbyron and the brilliant (and sharply dressed) former coach.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Wrong thread, huh Georgia?

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Wrong thread, huh Georgia?

Yeah. As soon as I realized it, I had to remove it. I had both open and forgot which one I was reading.

[PeteBooth]

Agreed Steve

here is the OP

Runner at 2nd, 1 out. Pop-up over 2nd base. Runner stays on base. Shortstop running to make the catch runs into the runner knocking him off the base. Shortstop catches the pop-up and tags the runner who is off the base. Double play or not?

For those that will call the runner out on this play - GET READY because in all liklihood you will have to EJ the OM.

It will go something like this (after OM requests and is granted TIME)

Mgr: Blue why is my runner out.

Blue: he was tagged while off his base

Mgr: (thinking to himself -DUH) Blue my runner was pushed / shoved off the base.

Blue: No skip that's baseball

Mgr: You mean to tell me that it is ok for a fielder to push / shove runners off a base and then tag them for an out.

Blue: Skip that's the call time to play

The manager will most likely "go off" and say something like that's the worst f$$$$$$g call I ever saw. If that's the case then I will tell all my fielders to simply shove the runner of the base etc, etc. etc.

In other words - It's by by skip

Granted we cannot officiate because we do not want to get a manager mad. heck the mgr will get mad anyway. The point is this:

Did the fileder make a legitimate play on the runner and did the runner come off the base DUE to his OWN momentum not some "outside" factor.

In Summary: I agree with Steve in that umpires will call the way they want to see this play. I believe we all want outs. The question is this a LEGITIMATE out or looking for straws.

Now if it was 95 - 100 degrees and the game was at the 3 hr. mark and this SECOND out call ends the game then by all means it's time to go.

Pete Booth

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This is getting a little silly. Of course, if you change the case so that the contact is illegal, I'd agree that it's illegal and rule accordingly.

The only thing you've added to the discussion (beyond a personal remark about me) is your opinion that you could knock a runner off the base while watching the ball. Maybe you could, if the ball were high enough and the runner weren't paying attention. So?

Can you please answer my 2 previous questions along with a new one? Ill repeat them for you so you dont have to back track

What if the SS lowers his shoulder or puts his hands up in a "push up" like position, do you still have non-obstruction on the SS?

Is there a difference between blatant pushing or blatant shouldering or subtle forearm shove?

does it matter at all if the runner is paying attention [to the SS] or not?

Thanks

[umpjong]

I understand it wont make any difference, but actually we need not look any further than the MLB rule book.

7.00—The Runner.
7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

If you understand basic English, you will see that he must be put out prior (that means before) to losing his entitlement to the base. If you knock him off, you are violating/depriving him of his entitlement to the base.

I know you will dispute this (because you have all ready discounted a MLB hall of fame historian/author) but so be it. You still have produced nothing that supports otherwise. (except for, of course, your opinion)

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by umpjong

I know you will dispute this (because you have all ready discounted a MLB hall of fame historian/author) but so be it. You still have produced nothing that supports otherwise. (except for, of course, your opinion)

A HOF historian/author how many of us had ever heard of? All I can see is that he writes an online column.

If it's on the internet it must be true.

BTW, the OP doesn't seem fair to me, but not because that article convinced me.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

A HOF historian/author how many of us had ever heard of? All I can see is that he writes an online column.

If it's on the internet it must be true.

BTW, the OP doesn't seem fair to me, but not because that article convinced me.

Just to clarify:

Bruce Markusen has worked at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum since 1995. In September of 2000, he became the Hall of Fame's Manager of Program Presentations, after having worked as a Senior Researcher in the Hall's Library. In his various capacities at the Hall of Fame, he has written numerous articles for publication, conducted audio-visual interviews for the Hall's archives, and narrated Hall of Fame video productions.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Just to clarify:

Bruce Markusen has worked at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum since 1995. In September of 2000, he became the Hall of Fame's Manager of Program Presentations, after having worked as a Senior Researcher in the Hall's Library. In his various capacities at the Hall of Fame, he has written numerous articles for publication, conducted audio-visual interviews for the Hall's archives, and narrated Hall of Fame video productions.

Yes, I read the bio. So I neglected to mention he works at the HOF. And the big deal about that is...?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by umpjong

I understand it wont make any difference, but actually we need not look any further than the MLB rule book.

7.00—The Runner.
7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

If you understand basic English, you will see that he must be put out prior (that means before) to losing his entitlement to the base. If you knock him off, you are violating/depriving him of his entitlement to the base.

I know you will dispute this (because you have all ready discounted a MLB hall of fame historian/author) but so be it. You still have produced nothing that supports otherwise. (except for, of course, your opinion)

Thank you. Okay, how is everyone going to get around this rule so they can penalize the runner for standing on his base? Please produce an authoritative interpretation on this, so we can start questioning that person's sanity.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Well, I'm a little late to this party, but I've got to agree with mbyron and jicecone - as long as the fielder was making a legitimate attempt to field the batted ball and the runner did not intentionally interfere, this is nothing but a "train wreck" - live ball, play the bounce.

The rules grant equal opportunity to the protected fielder and the runner in contact with his base to occupy the same space at the same time in this situation. When contact/a collision occurs in these circumstances, whatever happens happens. It is, as J/R says (and mbyron in this thread), "incidental contact".

If the runner happens to lose contact with his base as a result of the collision, he is liable to be tagged out while off his base. If the fielder happens to be unable to catch the ball as a result of the collision, too bad - live ball, play the bounce.

JM

So I'm supposed to use my baseball acumen to discern if that fielder intentionally or unintentionally pushed that runner off the base? If you allow the runner to be tagged out after being pushed off the base, you're turning baseball into football. Not a good idea.

JJ

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by JJ

So I'm supposed to use my baseball acumen to discern if that fielder intentionally or unintentionally pushed that runner off the base? If you allow the runner to be tagged out after being pushed off the base, you're turning baseball into football. Not a good idea.

JJ

JJ,

Yes, you are supposed to use your baseball acumen to judge whether the fielder intentionally knocked the runner off the base or was making a legitimate effort to field the batted ball.

Like football, baseball is a "contact sport". Unlike football, it is not an "intentional contact sport".

As described, the essential question in the OP is whether anyone is "penalized" - or aspects of the play are "nullified" - because the result of the legal contact was the runner losing contact with his base and subsequently being tagged out.

To me, there is no basis in the rules for anything other than, "live ball, play the bounce". As it would be if the OP were changed so that the contact prevented the F6 from making the catch.

Legal contact, whatever happens, happens. Fair is actually playing by the rules rather than injecting a foreign notion of "fairness" because something weird happens.

I do not believe an "official interpretation" exists that would clarify the question.

JM