Balk?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Ooohhhh ...

I learn so much about baseball coaching here.

Maybe you need it.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Maybe you need it.

Oh, I'll bet that hurt. He may never recover.

What wit.

Did you spend a lot of time working on that "zinger" or do you subscribe to some coaches' service that provides such provocative and scorching comments?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have NEVER said that there is no such rule. What I have said is: It DOES NOT matter if F1 DOES or DOES NOT take signs from F2 while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, BUT F1, at some point after making contact with the pitcher's plate, must take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he can legally pitch to the batter. If he DOES NOT, after making contact with the pitcher's plate, take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he pitches the ball to the batter, then he has violated a requirement of NFHS Rule 6."

MTD, Sr.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have NEVER said that there is no such rule. What I have said is: It DOES NOT matter if F1 DOES or DOES NOT take signs from F2 while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, BUT F1, at some point after making contact with the pitcher's plate, must take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he can legally pitch to the batter. If he DOES NOT, after making contact with the pitcher's plate, take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he pitches the ball to the batter, then he has violated a requirement of NFHS Rule 6."

MTD, Sr.

I have a question. Since I do not do Fed ball, what does the rule say which covers the part about "he must take or simulate to take signs from the catcher"?

As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch, then he should be OK to not simulate taking signs. For instance, LHP stands astride rubber looking at 1B. Batter steps in with plenty of time to get ready. F1 checks batter and F2 to make sure they are in place. He steps on the rubber while looking at 1B still and comes set still looking. Then, pitches the ball. Since he never looked at F2 for a sign, a balk is called on him for this?

So in Fed, it is a balk while in OBR(and possibly NCAA) it is legal? Interesting and another good reason why I don't like Fed rules.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I have a question. Since I do not do Fed ball, what does the rule say which covers the part about "he must take or simulate to take signs from the catcher"?

As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch, then he should be OK to not simulate taking signs. For instance, LHP stands astride rubber looking at 1B. Batter steps in with plenty of time to get ready. F1 checks batter and F2 to make sure they are in place. He steps on the rubber while looking at 1B still and comes set still looking. Then, pitches the ball. Since he never looked at F2 for a sign, a balk is called on him for this?

So in Fed, it is a balk while in OBR(and possibly NCAA) it is legal? Interesting and another good reason why I don't like Fed rules.

I posted the sentence from 6-1-1 that you're asking about above, post #14. OBR has the same provision: the second sentence of 8.01 is, "Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate." And this is NOT a balk in any rule code: it's a "don't do that." Geez, how many errors can you pack into one little post?

No rule code AFAIK uses the word 'simulate' in this context. I think JM first added that word in this thread.

Your sitch is not a balk. The rule does not require F1 to take signs; it specifies that he's to be on the rubber if he does so.

Frankly, I'm not sure why this thread became so warm, since I suspect that all of the good umpires arguing here enforce this provision exactly the same.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I posted the sentence from 6-1-1 that you're asking about above, post #14. OBR has the same provision: the second sentence of 8.01 is, "Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate." And this is NOT a balk in any rule code: it's a "don't do that." Geez, how many errors can you pack into one little post?

No rule code AFAIK uses the word 'simulate' in this context. I think JM first added that word in this thread.

Your sitch is not a balk. The rule does not require F1 to take signs; it specifies that he's to be on the rubber if he does so.

Frankly, I'm not sure why this thread became so warm, since I suspect that all of the good umpires arguing here enforce this provision exactly the same.

I agree. This is just a "Don't do that" issue. It is no bigger of an issue than it has been blown up to be. And, is only there to prevent quick pitches b/c those are a balk and also, dangerous. Taking or not taking signs on or off the rubber has no bearing on anything other than a possible "Don't do that".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I agree. This is just a "Don't do that" issue. It is no bigger of an issue than it has been blown up to be. And, is only there to prevent quick pitches b/c those are a balk and also, dangerous. Taking or not taking signs on or off the rubber has no bearing on anything other than a possible "Don't do that".

F1 taking signs from anybody while not in contact with the pitcher's plate is NOT a "don't do that" because it is not illegal. It is ILLEGAL for a pitcher to NOT take or simulate taking a signal from F2 while in contact with the pitcher's plate.

MTD, Sr.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

. . . the second sentence of 8.01 is, "Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate." . . .
No rule code AFAIK uses the word 'simulate' in this context.

This is a softball thing.
NFHS softball rule 6-1-1-b: "While in this position [on the pitcher's plate], the pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal from the catcher."
ASA 6-1-D: "While on the pitching plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to be taking a signal with the hands separated."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Paul L

This is a softball thing.
NFHS softball rule 6-1-1-b: "While in this position [on the pitcher's plate], the pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal from the catcher."
ASA 6-1-D: "While on the pitching plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to be taking a signal with the hands separated."

Oh sorry: when I said "no rule code," naturally on the baseball forum I assumed everyone knew I was talking about baseball rules.

Maybe soccer and wrestling rules use the word 'simulate' too. How interesting! [/sarcasm]

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Frankly, I'm not sure why this thread became so warm, since I suspect that all of the good umpires arguing here enforce this provision exactly the same.

While I agree with you that all of the GOOD umpires here probably enforce this the same way, I also guarantee you that there are several hardheads who will balk a kid who takes any sign from anywhere except F2, at any time except on the rubber.

This is one of 3 or 4 rules issues that in my experience distinguish between Real [tm] Umpires and Yokels in Uniforms: Yokels balk kids for "taking signs" from, for example, the dugout; or not taking any sign at all; despite the fact that the kid comes in contact, pauses and looks into F2, and pitches having given everyone ample opportunity to be ready. The said Yokels do this on the same assinine "I can read" theory expounded by several posters inthis thread.

A painfully LONG experience of frustration trying to deal with the ignorance of Yokels [as I am sure that my experience is shared by many] is probably why this thread "got so warm."

[David B]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have NEVER said that there is no such rule. What I have said is: It DOES NOT matter if F1 DOES or DOES NOT take signs from F2 while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, BUT F1, at some point after making contact with the pitcher's plate, must take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he can legally pitch to the batter. If he DOES NOT, after making contact with the pitcher's plate, take or simulate taking signs from F2 before he pitches the ball to the batter, then he has violated a requirement of NFHS Rule 6."

MTD, Sr.

Mark, that is not the intent of the rule. He does not HAVE to take signs at all. Remember Jim Katt, he made a living with the "almost quick pitch".
I think that's what you are saying, but it was not very clear to me.

The majority of small ball players don't take signs either. They just get on the mound and pitch.

As long as they are not in the umpires judgement making a quick pitch all is well. If F1 in the umpires judgement delivers a quick pitch, then the umpire has to take further action.

PU has the responsibility to protect the batter in this situation.
But if the batter is ready, F1 toes the rubber (with a little bit of a pause) and then pitches, he has violated no rules.

Thanks
David

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by David B

Mark, that is not the intent of the rule. He does not HAVE to take signs at all. Remember Jim Katt, he made a living with the "almost quick pitch".
I think that's what you are saying, but it was not very clear to me.

The majority of small ball players don't take signs either. They just get on the mound and pitch.

As long as they are not in the umpires judgement making a quick pitch all is well. If F1 in the umpires judgement delivers a quick pitch, then the umpire has to take further action.

PU has the responsibility to protect the batter in this situation.
But if the batter is ready, F1 toes the rubber (with a little bit of a pause) and then pitches, he has violated no rules.

Thanks
David

Dave:

I hate to disappoint you, but the requirement for the pitcher to take or simulate taking a signal from the catcher after he has engaged the pitching plate IS to prevent a quick pitch; it prevents a pitcher from engaging the pitching plate and immediately going into his pitching motion.

As far as very young players not taking a signal, I agree that until players get to be 12 or 13 years of age, they only have one pitch, but that still does not mean that they do not at least simulate taking a pitch. A MLB pitcher who is a knuckleballer has only one pitch, but he still has to at least simulate taking a sign from his catcher after engaging the pitching plate before starting his pitching motion.

MTD, Sr.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Ooohhhh ...

I learn so much about baseball coaching here.

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Maybe you need it.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Oh, I'll bet that hurt. He may never recover.

What wit.

Did you spend a lot of time working on that "zinger" or do you subscribe to some coaches' service that provides such provocative and scorching comments?

This just went from an interesting discussion to nothing real quick.