Balk?

[jwwashburn]

I had a friend from Michigan call me up about this one.

OBR

Runner on 1st-Pitcher leaned in and took signs while straddling the rubber. He then engaged, stretched, set and pitched. I do not think I have ever seen that. He did not balk him but wondered if he should have balked him.

8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

If he is doing something goofy to deceive the runners, don't we have the responsibility to balk him? Also, he was a lefty and they should not be allowed to pitch, anyway.

Joe in Missouri

[Forest Ump]

No Balk. At the most, it's a don't do that and that's only after a complaint from the offense. Don't look for trouble, it will find you.

[JR12]

Agreed. No penalty listed in OBR.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Forest Ump

No Balk. At the most, it's a don't do that and that's only after a complaint from the offense. Don't look for trouble, it will find you.

Why is it "a don't do that again" scenario? If the pitcher did nothing illegal, I do not care who much the howler monkey from the offensive team screams, I am not going to say anything unless F1 quick pitches and then I am going to balk him.

MTD, Sr.

[JR12]

Because we are paid to enforce the rules. While it is not something we look for or even care about (as long as he isn't trying to quick pitch) if it's brought to my attention I would tell him to take his sign while on the rubber.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Why is it "a don't do that again" scenario? If the pitcher did nothing illegal, I do not care who much the howler monkey from the offensive team screams, I am not going to say anything unless F1 quick pitches and then I am going to balk him.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, the pitcher violated the provision that he shall take his signs from the rubber.

The issue is not that he did nothing illegal; it's that what he did carries no penalty. A violation that carries no specific penalty is still a violation. Compare the rule requiring all infielders to be in fair territory. No penalty for a violation of that provision either (and enforcement is similar).

Therefore, proper procedure is "don't do that," or in more official parlance, warn and then eject.

Depending on the level, I might ignore this; or I might address it with the coach between innings; or I might warn and then eject.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JR12

Because we are paid to enforce the rules. While it is not something we look for or even care about (as long as he isn't trying to quick pitch) if it's brought to my attention I would tell him to take his sign while on the rubber.

F1 has done nothing illegal when takes a sign while straddling the rubber and then engages the pitchign plate and takes or simulates taking a sign. By taking or simulating taking a sign while in contact with the pitchign plate, F1 has met the requirements of the rules. There is nothing in the rules that prohibites F1 from taking a sign while not in contact with the pitching plate. But it is illegal not to take or simulate taking a sign while in contact with the pitching plate and then pitching the ball; that is a quick pitch.'

MTD, Sr.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

F1 has done nothing illegal when takes a sign while straddling the rubber and then engages the pitchign plate and takes or simulates taking a sign. By taking or simulating taking a sign while in contact with the pitchign plate, F1 has met the requirements of the rules. There is nothing in the rules that prohibites F1 from taking a sign while not in contact with the pitching plate. But it is illegal not to take or simulate taking a sign while in contact with the pitching plate and then pitching the ball; that is a quick pitch.'

MTD, Sr.

IMHO there is more to this requirement than the part about quick pitching. By leaning in and taking the sign, he is indicating to the runner that he is engaged. The runner, therefore, assumes that there must be a disengagement or step before there can be a pickoff throw. If the pitcher makes a snap throw without the disengagement or step, he has gained an advantage.

I am in MByron's camp on this one. Warn, then warn again, then warn again. I do not think it would ever get to an ejection.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Blue37

IMHO there is more to this requirement than the part about quick pitching. By leaning in and taking the sign, he is indicating to the runner that he is engaged. The runner, therefore, assumes that there must be a disengagement or step before there can be a pickoff throw. If the pitcher makes a snap throw without the disengagement or step, he has gained an advantage.

I am in MByron's camp on this one. Warn, then warn again, then warn again. I do not think it would ever get to an ejection.

The pitcher doesn't have to lean in and get a sign. He doesn't have to "stretch". He can take a sign from the actual set if he wants to. He doesn't even have to take a sign. He just can't quick pitch.

The pitcher cannot be on or astride the rubber (OBR) or within about 5' of the rubber (FED) without the ball. THAT is the runner's indication that the pitcher has the ball. After that the runner's on his own.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The pitcher doesn't have to lean in and get a sign. He doesn't have to "stretch". He can take a sign from the actual set if he wants to. He doesn't even have to take a sign. He just can't quick pitch.

The pitcher cannot be on or astride the rubber (OBR) or within about 5' of the rubber (FED) without the ball. THAT is the runner's indication that the pitcher has the ball. After that the runner's on his own.

I agree. This is consistent with how I was taught to interpret the provision of 8.01 from the OP: If the pitcher takes a sign, then he shall do so while in contact with the rubber. That's equivalent to saying: if he's off the rubber, he can't take signs.

FWIW, I never get into the business of determining what counts as a "sign." This is one of the reasons to ignore all of this until somebody complains or it's obvious that the defense is attempting to illegally deceive the runner(s).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Blue37:

You said: "By leaning in and taking the sign, he is indicating to the runner that he is engaged." Are you tellling me that the runner is not capable of seeing whether F1 is in contact with the pitching plate? If the runner can not tell that F1 is not in contact with the pitching plate, he needs to have his eyes checked and get glasses. My sons have played baseball since they were playing YMCA coach-pitch, and they have said time and time again, that they can tell when F1 is in contact with the pitching plate and when F1 is not.

You said: "The runner, therefore, assumes that there must be a disengagement or step before there can be a pickoff throw." Once again, it is too bad if the runner's eye sight is not good enough to tell that F1 is not in contact with the pitching plate.

You said: "If the pitcher makes a snap throw without the disengagement or step, he has gained an advantage." If F1 is in contact with the pitching plate he has to follow the rules of pitching. BUT, if F1 is not in contact with the pitching plate he is an infielder and can throw anywhere or feint anywhere he pleases.

MTD, Sr.

[Rufus]

Can anyone please provide the rule/penalty under Fed? Our son plays in a travel team and they use Fed in that league (instead of USSSA/OBR like the recreational league I coach in). The umpire called a balk when the pitcher on my son's team took signs while not engaged with the plate. I didn't think it was right but, like I said, I'm more familiar with the USSSA/OBR rule that you all have discussed here.

Thanks in advance.

[mikebran]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

F1 has done nothing illegal when takes a sign while straddling the rubber

.

Wow. I'm standing on my head, listening to Abby Road backwards and the OFFICIAL RULES OF BASEBALL STILL SAY

..shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher plate

PLEASE INVITE ME TO THIS GAME...


Pitcher is clearly straddling rubber, leaning in and taking signs.

Base coach: Hey Mr. Official, doesn't he need to be in contact with the rubber to take signs.

Official: He's not doing anything illegal, so go pound sand

Base coach: muttering.. I swear I read that once, oh well, the umpire is always right!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Can anyone please provide the rule/penalty under Fed?

6-1-1:

*snip*
"He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate."
*snip*

The penalty is the same as OBR: "don't do that."

[Ump Rube]

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dad immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner on, a ball is awarded to the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

Would not this in FED then be a ball/balk?