Balk Or No Balk

[bfoster]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In OBR he can do that from either the windup or the set position.

If a RHP's windup usually consists of him stepping to the side with his free-foot, is there a good rule of thumb for distinguising between the start of his windup and his stepping to throw to first? I mean, even if his foot isn't turned and pointing towards first base, it seems that he would still be able to argue that a step to first base. It's like he'd have the option to throw to first or pitch with the same movement.

[johnnyg08]

In FED they can't throw to a base other than to pitch from the wind-up.

Under OBR, the pitcher can aruge whatever he wants...he must step directly to the base he's throwing in order to make a play on the runner. Otherwise it's a balk.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bfoster

If a RHP's windup usually consists of him stepping to the side with his free-foot, is there a good rule of thumb for distinguising between the start of his windup and his stepping to throw to first? I mean, even if his foot isn't turned and pointing towards first base, it seems that he would still be able to argue that a step to first base. It's like he'd have the option to throw to first or pitch with the same movement.

What do his arms / body "look like" when he's going to pitch? What do they "look like" when he's throwing to first? It shouldn't be hard to distinguish this.

You can't just concentrate on one body part / rules issue. It's the entirety that makes it a balk or legal.

[justanotherblue]

Buy the Jim Evans Balk Video, it's the best video IMHO on the market for balks. You can find it at his web site. All your questions will be answered and then some. This is the same video he uses in his five week school. A must for all umpires.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bfoster

If a RHP's windup usually consists of him stepping to the side with his free-foot, is there a good rule of thumb for distinguising between the start of his windup and his stepping to throw to first?

1. Why is he pitching from the windup with R1?

2. I distinguish it like this: in the windup, he steps back with his free foot. In a pickoff, he steps forward with his free foot.

3. As Bob said: watch his whole body. If you can't tell what he's doing and he throws over, it's probably a balk for simulating a pitch.

[ss17]

Can someone please clarify for me...

Pitchers can either step off and throw, or they can "jump turn." As a coach, I'm not familiar with all of the umpire lingo, but I am trying to figure out. When you guys say disengage, I am assuming you are talking about the step off move.

When you guys are saying that he must step toward the base, does that mean both feet must go to the base?? I only say this because it is sounding that the pitcher can pivot off his backfoot, still be engaged with the rubber, and still legally make a play on the runner. I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

Thanks

[SethPDX]

He only needs to step with one foot. He can pivot with his, well, pivot foot (the one on the rubber), then step toward a base with his non-pivot foot (or free foot), then throw, and it's legal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can someone please clarify for me...

Pitchers can either step off and throw, or they can "jump turn." As a coach, I'm not familiar with all of the umpire lingo, but I am trying to figure out. When you guys say disengage, I am assuming you are talking about the step off move.

When you guys are saying that he must step toward the base, does that mean both feet must go to the base?? I only say this because it is sounding that the pitcher can pivot off his backfoot, still be engaged with the rubber, and still legally make a play on the runner. I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

Thanks

Yes, the pitcher can be engaged with the rubber and step to the base and throw (first base) or throw and/or feint (second or third base). He does NOT have to step off the rubber to do this. If he throws the ball out of play while in contact with the rubber, the runners advance one base. If he steps backward off the rubber first (the only legal way to step off), then throws it out of play, it's a two-base award. The pitcher is only required to step toward the base with his non-pivot foot (the one not on the rubber).

Does this help?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ss17

I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we know for cetain that just isn't so.

[ss17]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we know for cetain that just isn't so.

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

The only reason I ask is because I have NEVER seen a pitcher do it, and it seems so much faster.

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

The only reason I ask is because I have NEVER seen a pitcher do it, and it seems so much faster.

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

The rule says that he must step ahead of the throw. It does not require that the pivot foot come off the rubber when he does so.

Try it; you might not find it so easy. Remember that nothing can be moving toward home when you do it.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by ss17

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

You can't really think of it that way. Watch a week of MLB baseball. Then maybe you'll see what we're trying to point out to you. I seems like you're not understanding the rule properly.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

Yes.

[ss17]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

Can you point me to the rule book/case book??

I am just trying to figure this out, because this is against everything I have ever learned/heard.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by ss17

...

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

ss17,

From OBR Rule 8.01:

(c) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

Any umpires who are "stunned" by this really ought to take a look at the rule book.

JM