Balk Or No Balk

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can someone please clarify for me...

Pitchers can either step off and throw, or they can "jump turn." As a coach, I'm not familiar with all of the umpire lingo, but I am trying to figure out. When you guys say disengage, I am assuming you are talking about the step off move.

When you guys are saying that he must step toward the base, does that mean both feet must go to the base?? I only say this because it is sounding that the pitcher can pivot off his backfoot, still be engaged with the rubber, and still legally make a play on the runner. I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

Thanks

Yes, the pitcher can be engaged with the rubber and step to the base and throw (first base) or throw and/or feint (second or third base). He does NOT have to step off the rubber to do this. If he throws the ball out of play while in contact with the rubber, the runners advance one base. If he steps backward off the rubber first (the only legal way to step off), then throws it out of play, it's a two-base award. The pitcher is only required to step toward the base with his non-pivot foot (the one not on the rubber).

Does this help?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ss17

I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we know for cetain that just isn't so.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can someone please clarify for me...

Pitchers can either step off and throw, or they can "jump turn." As a coach, I'm not familiar with all of the umpire lingo, but I am trying to figure out. When you guys say disengage, I am assuming you are talking about the step off move.

When you guys are saying that he must step toward the base, does that mean both feet must go to the base?? I only say this because it is sounding that the pitcher can pivot off his backfoot, still be engaged with the rubber, and still legally make a play on the runner. I know that is not the case, so can someone please clarify??

Thanks

Coach, there are many legal moves to 1B for a RHP, so it's not realistic to catalog them all here.

You need to understand that a pitcher who has engaged the rubber may do one of three things:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Step and throw to a base
3. Legally disengage (step off)

#2 requires a step BEFORE the throw. A "step" is defined as the free foot (front foot) gaining distance and direction toward the base to which he's throwing.

That rules out, for example, a LHP picking up his free foot and setting it down in the same spot while flipping the ball over to 1B. It also rules out a RHP stepping toward the plate while turning his shoulders and throwing to 1B.

The "jump turn" and "jab step" are moves that RHPs use, and by interpretation they are legal at all levels. A RHP jumps, turns his whole body including his feet, so that his free foot gains distance and direction toward 1B. Then he throws (the throw may happen at roughly the same time).

Once you understand the basic principles, judging a legal move is much easier.

[ss17]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, it's what we know for cetain that just isn't so.

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

The only reason I ask is because I have NEVER seen a pitcher do it, and it seems so much faster.

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

The only reason I ask is because I have NEVER seen a pitcher do it, and it seems so much faster.

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

The rule says that he must step ahead of the throw. It does not require that the pivot foot come off the rubber when he does so.

Try it; you might not find it so easy. Remember that nothing can be moving toward home when you do it.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by ss17

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

You can't really think of it that way. Watch a week of MLB baseball. Then maybe you'll see what we're trying to point out to you. I seems like you're not understanding the rule properly.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

Yes.

[ss17]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

Can you point me to the rule book/case book??

I am just trying to figure this out, because this is against everything I have ever learned/heard.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by ss17

...

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

ss17,

From OBR Rule 8.01:

(c) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

Any umpires who are "stunned" by this really ought to take a look at the rule book.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you point me to the rule book/case book??

I am just trying to figure this out, because this is against everything I have ever learned/heard.

Thanks

Did you also learn that the hands are part of the bat?

In general, if it's a baseball move, it's legal unless it's prohibited by rule. So it's a fool's errand to go hunting in the rule book to find a rule that makes something legal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ss17

Can you really just pivot off of the back foot, and it's completely legal with a RHP to 1B??

Yes. He does not have to step off the rubber in any way, shape, or form.

Originally Posted by ss17

The only reason I ask is because I have NEVER seen a pitcher do it, and it seems so much faster.

Well, I'm sure you have, because it is rare to see a big league pitcher step off before throwing to first. If you are trying to pick off a runner, why on earth would you want to tip him off by stepping back off the rubber first? You would never pick off a single runner that way. Duh.

Originally Posted by ss17

I guess I am having a hard time trying to say this correctly. I know a pitcher doesn't have to disengage from the rubber, but even when a pitcher jump turns, both feet come up in the air, and therefore his back foot does separate from the rubber.

Jump turns and jab steps are done while in contact with the rubber. The fact that the pivot foot separates from the rubber does not mean that they are considered "off the rubber." Off the rubber means that the pitcher has legally disengaged the rubber by stepping backwards off the rubber with his pivot foot prior to doing anything else. A pitcher need not do that before throwing or feinting to a base.

Originally Posted by ss17

If this is the case, can someone point to the rule book/case book where I can reference this point, because there would be a lot of coaches (and umpires) that would be stunned!!

As has been stated, if there is no rule to prohibit something, then it's considered legal. There is no need to make a list of legal activites in the rule book.

I seriously doubt any umpire would be stunned by the pitching rules, but I can see how many coaches might be. Most coaches (Sparky Anderson, UmpJM and Rich Ives excluded) don't make much of a study of the rules. They usually, like you are doing, go by what they think are the rules, or what they heard are the rules, or the myths they heard growing up on the playground (such as "the hands are part of the bat," or "tie goes to the runner").

Originally Posted by ss17

I am just trying to figure this out, because this is against everything I have ever learned/heard.

Then it's a good thing you came here and got an education!

[JPaco54]

With all this info got me thinking then...
1. Is there a difference in the terms stretch vs. set?
2. Preliminary movements? Is there a definition for this?

Example: If the pitcher is in the stretch...as I understand stretch,(foot on the rubber, hands apart, taking signals) and his motion begins,bringing his free foot back as he brings his hands together.... but before he becomes SET,(bringing hands together and pauses) he steps towards first and throws. Legal?

[UmpJM]

JPaco54,

1. Yes there is a difference, if we're talking the lexicon of the rules of baseball. Set is one of the two legal pitching positions defined in the rules (the other being windup), while the stretch is a "preliminary movement" which is explicitly legal for the pitcher to do before bringing his hands together and coming to a complete stop when pitching from the set position.

Colloquially, the two terms are often used interchangeably by people who have not actually read a rule book or when the discussion is not a technical "rules" discussion.

2. No, there is no definition of "preliminary movements" in the rule book, other than that they are something the pitcher does after engaging the rubber in the set position and prior to bringing his hands together. The stretch is specifically mentioned as an example of a legal "preliminary movement".

It is perfectly legal for a pitcher who has assumed the set position to make a (legal) pick-off throw to a base. He need not bring his hands together and stop before doing so. As a matter of fact, it is perfectly legal for him, in an attempt to deceive the runner, to begin his motion to come set and then change to a pick-off as long as he does so in a continuous motion without interruption and steps legally to the base.

That always struck me as slightly odd in the context of the "...without alteration or interruption..." language. Nonetheless, it is so.

Finally, don't think, it can only hurt the team.

JM

[JPaco54]

UmpJM - thanks for taking the time to explain my questions. Very helpful. Almost like you read my mind. I am trying to take the advise of many as to not "over think" the rules.