Fair/Foul Two Man Crew Situation (From a Dad)

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by David B

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

Yea, our league doesn't allow protests, but I did show him the rule.

He apologized, but plainly he did not know much about balks at all.

Sad thing is that he knows I'm an umpire also, so he should have known something was wrong.

I blame PU also because he could have called time, walked out and talked with BU and correct this, he either didn't know the rule also or just was too weak to go there.

Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

[tballump]

Originally Posted by David B

Y
Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

IMHO this is not Japan where the umpires apologize to the teams and crowd. I think you as the coach(or if you are not the coach you could have told the coach of your conversation), should have explained to your player that you had talked to the umpire and that the umpire had told you that they missed the call, and that the team has been coached properly. If the player does not believe his own coach without hearing the words from the umpire directly, something is wrong in the coach/player relationship, especially when trust is not there.

To have the ump come over to the kid after privately telling the coach, is just rubbing salt in the wound and is just like showing up the umpire. A mistake was made and privately admitted to you the coach (or team representative) and an umpire yourself. The umpire now knows for next time which is exactly the outcome desired. Time to move on. Once again IMHO.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Did you show him the rule after the game?

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

To me, you are some Joe Blow. And, as I said, if the umpire doesn't know you are an umpire, then leave them alone. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is "I have been umpiring X years" b/c Rats will try anything.

Second, Rats will try not to be confrontational until they don't get their way. All do it, even the pros. So, none of this means a thing. Just look at how the one acted in the other thread. He started nice until he didn't get his way.

It's funny how so many will jump on a Rat they don't know is an umpire. But, let one of the supposed umpires pull the same thing as a Rat, and so many on this forum will agree. That is amazing to me. I wonder if those like that are that inconsistent on the field. Possibly. Hmmm. Flip flop on this forum, I wonder if they flip flop on the field with their calls. Hmmmm.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire,

If you look closely at the bolded type, you will see that I told you I was well-known. This means that the other umpires in my association know who I am. When we attend meetings (sometimes weekly, but normally bi-weekly), everybody gets to know everyone else. I wouldn't go up to someone I had never met and start telling them anything, but on the other hand, I don't have a problem with someone coming to me after a game in a respectful manner. It's all in how you approach someone.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If you look closely at the bolded type, you will see that I told you I was well-known. This means that the other umpires in my association know who I am. When we attend meetings (sometimes weekly, but normally bi-weekly), everybody gets to know everyone else. I wouldn't go up to someone I had never met and start telling them anything, but on the other hand, I don't have a problem with someone coming to me after a game in a respectful manner. It's all in how you approach someone.

Forget it. You missed the point of the other posts and how the other thread went from non-confrontational to confrontational in no time. Forget it. The points are lost on you.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I wouldn't go up to someone I had never met and start telling them anything, but on the other hand, I don't have a problem with someone coming to me after a game in a respectful manner. It's all in how you approach someone.

I also believe I had just got done telling you this, which said that I wouldn't go to someone I didn't know, but that I didn't have a problem with someone approaching me (fan, coach, parent, etc.) in a respectful manner. So, I agree that an umpire should not approach an umpire that he does not know.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

I see you have experience with this type of circus. Each side spouting off particular events as they see fit. Each side making up a version of reality to support their desired position. Neither side listening to the other.

Best to let it go on or to avoid it at all costs? I hear what your saying.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SAump

I see you have experience with this type of circus. Each side spouting off particular events as they see fit. Each side making up a version of reality to support their desired position. Neither side listening to the other.

Best to let it go on or to avoid it at all costs? I hear what your saying.

From experience, No. But, from others and as you can how the one in the other thread was, then you can see why it should not be done.

But, if you want to allow it, then go ahead. But, when it blows up in your face and causes a bigger problem than just stopping it in the beginning, then oh well.

My suggestion is for those who are not known to be an umpire to that umpire, should not try to bother the umpire after the game is over. The game is over so let it go. If they want results, go to the umpire's assignor(or whatever the person is called in your area), and let them deal with it. It will be less confrontational and probably get better results. Not let it go on but do it in a more professional, courteous manner(and this applies to umpires especially). Better results come from that approach. A Rat trying to do it in the heat of the moment may not get any results expected.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

If they want results, go to the umpire's assignor(or whatever the person is called in your area), and let them deal with it. It will be less confrontational and probably get better results. Not let it go on but do it in a more professional, courteous manner(and this applies to umpires especially).

And this differs from what I said how? Didn't I say to approach the umpire in a professional manner? What if I am the assignor? I have worked closely with my assignor and have assigned games with my assignor on a bi-weekly basis for many years. Does this qualify me? I have been asked for my input as to what level I thought a certain umpire should be working. Is this close enough? I have been assigned to evaluate umpires BY my assignor. He has asked me to go see how so-and-so works, and I've also been assigned with certain umpires to evaluate them as well. And if one of those umpires gets a rule wrong, and I catch the error, I am going to say something about it so it doesn't happen again.

[DG]

When I was coaching I showed an umpire the rule only once. We were playing a team whose coach was not one of my favorites and his son was pitching. My son broke up a no-hitter in the 5th, but was called out for not reporting, after the other coach complained. I discussed what I thought teh correct rulling should be with the PU and he said "show me". I guess he did not think I had a rule book. After I showed he reversed the out and allowed the hit. The other coach said he would protest. I told him good, go ahead. It cost $50 to lodge a protest in the league and if not upheld the $50 went to the league. I would not have shown the rule book if he had not asked me to.